Episode #174: Market Research Strategies for Developing Good Toys Kids Will Love with Dr. Amanda Gummer
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In this episode of "Making It in The Toy Industry" podcast, host Azhelle Wade aka The Toy Coach interviews Dr. Amanda Gummer, a research psychologist and founder of Good Play Guide, a service that provides independent product evaluations and accreditations for children's toys and games. Azhelle asks Dr. Gummer, about her work and the importance of evaluating toys for children's development. Dr. Gummer talks about her passion for helping people make good toys for kids and raising standards within the industry. She also shares details about Good Play Guide's accreditation program and how it helps prevent products that could damage a brand's reputation.
The conversation talks about the Toy Associations new STEAM accreditation, established in 2021 and details how it follows the same principles as the Good Play Guide. The Toy Coach and Dr. Gummer discuss the value of having an independent, research-based evaluation program for toys and games that involves children in the testing process. Dr. Gummer shares some of the most recent Good Play Guide award winners, as well as construction toys that are becoming more environmentally friendly.
Overall, this episode provides valuable insights into the importance of independent toy evaluations and how they can help the industry create better products for children's educational development.
To watch the full video of today’s episode, head over to youtube.com/thetoycoach and subscribe to our channel.
EPISODE CLIFF NOTES
Learn the importance of independent toy evaluations and how they can help the industry create better products for children's development. [0:30]
Find out about Good Play Guide's accreditation program and how it helps prevent products that could damage a brand's reputation. [5:10]
Discover some recent winners of the Good Play Guide, including the Family Trio and Botley learning resources. [14:40]
Get insights into how construction toys are becoming more environmentally friendly. [16:25]
Understand the value of involving children in the testing process for toys and games. [22:10]
Learn about the new STEAM accreditation and how it follows the same principles as the Good Play Guide. [24:40]
Discover the passion Amanda Gummer has for helping people make good toys for kids and raising standards within the industry. [27:00]
Find out how independent toy evaluations can help prevent products that could damage a brand's reputation. [31:30]
Get insights into the importance of having an independent, research-based evaluation program for toys and games. [33:50]
Learn how the Good Play Guide accreditation is valid for the life of the product, not just for the current year. [38:20]
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Stem Toy Assessment Framework pdf
This episode is brought to you by www.thetoycoach.com
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Azhelle Wade: Hey there, toy people. Azhelle Wade here and welcome back to another episode of the Toy Coach Podcast, making it in the Toy Industry. This is a weekly podcast brought to you by the toy coach.com. Okay. My guest today is a friend and her name is Dr. Gummer, and you might know her from Dr. Gummer's Good play guide.
A number of my students have posted in our Facebook group that their toy is accredited by her incredible program, so I'm just so excited to have her here. Welcome to the show. Thanks, Azhelle. Yes. So I wanna just give a little bit of your backstory. Your research psychologist specializing in child development.
You've worked for over 20 years to promote the value of play and positive parenting in child development. Dr. Amanda Gummer has founded the research consultancy, fundamentally Children and the consumer facing platform, Dr. Goer's Good Play Guide, and she's also an N E D four or ned for Families in Focus, c I C will have to get into what that is.
A founding member of the Children's Activities Association, a genius of play ambassador, a judge for the future skills category of the Play for Change Awards, a WIT mentor. A board advisor for a number of small mission-driven startups in the children's space as well. I don't know how she has the time. So, Dr.
Amanda, come. Thank you so much for being here. Welcome to the show. I'm excited to dive into more of what you do and how you help people. No,
Amanda Gummer: thanks Azhelle. Again. No, thank you for having me. It's, it's, I'm happy to talk about play till the cows come home. So it's, it's great to have an opportunity to, to talk with you today.
So, yeah, um, I guess I've been. I've been involved in play throughout my life. My dad used to work for toy companies. He started off with Pal Toy and did the Action Man stuff. And then, um, he worked for Mattel. And so I've, I've kind of grown up in the toy industry. I did my wow and my stripes, you know, dressing up as a Veian bunny for toy shows and demonstrating at Toy Fair.
So it's, it's been a part of my life forever, but, I just, everything that I've done in my life has shown me that play is, is the silver bullet. It's the answer to so many of our problems. And, and it's not stigmatized. It's not, it's not like a, an intervention. It's just plays what we do. And the more we do it, the better it gets.
Azhelle Wade: Ooh, I love that. I, I mean, ugh, I'd be, there's so many questions. Your dad was in sales in, in the toy industry, right? Is that what Yeah. And tell me what it was like growing up in that environment. Did you feel like your dad had like the most fun job?
Amanda Gummer: Yeah, we had, uh, lots of friends always wanted to come around and play at our house.
Um, I remember when Asgrow Wars and the, like, the little Pacman things first came out, those first electronic handheld games giving away my age a little bit there. But, um, I remember when they and my dad was like, oh, what are these? I have no idea. So me and my brother got given them to go. Work out how to play these.
And we were like the coolest kids in the class cuz we had all these very fun new electronic games that we were playing and, and then we had to sort of explained to my dad so that he could go and sell them and yeah, it was great.
Azhelle Wade: Wait, you explained the toy to your dad so he could go
Amanda Gummer: sell them? Yeah.
That's amazing. I ate.
Azhelle Wade: That's amazing. So you were actually, you were actually making money for the family at age eight? Yeah. Doing my thing. Okay, so I wanna get into, like, now we know a little bit about your background, how you got into this industry. I would love to hear more about the detail of what your company does.
Well it, it seems like you have kind of two cuz there's developmentally, wait, hold on. I wanna get the, the name right. Fundamentally Children and the Good Play Guide. So those are two. Yeah. So the, the research consultancy fundamentally children, how does that work? What's that all about? And honestly, I've been wanting to ask you for, since I met you, like how did you start that?
Like how did you do
Amanda Gummer: that? Okay, so, um, there're two sides. It's two sides of the same coins, but it's, it's under the same company, but it's just two different divisions you like and fundamentally children is, is really where I started. And it came about because one of the companies that my dad was working for wanted to check whether a toy that was doing a games console that was doing well in Japan would work in the UK market.
Okay. And, At the time I'd finished my PhD in psychology. I'd been teaching special needs kids in, um, Hong Kong. I'd developed educational programs and, and I was, I was, I had two young children. I was wondering what I was gonna do with my life and I was lecturing in child development for the Open University.
So, wait,
Azhelle Wade: I was like, I'm sorry. I have to say this woman had a PhD in psychology. Two young children had been teaching and was still like, what am I gonna do with my life? I haven't done enough. Yeah, I mean, Wow. Okay. Go on.
Amanda Gummer: Okay. So, I mean that wasn't all simultaneously, but yeah. Had my kids back in the UK and I was like, what am I gonna do?
And um, this research opportunity came and I. Uh, you know, back then there wasn't the focus on, on child development within research, market research was market research. So, you know, people were used to going, oh, eight out of 10 kids like this. Four out of 10 kids said that, oh, and that was it. And because of my background in, in the sort of child development and psychology, I was like, okay, well, Eight out of 10 kids said this.
And that might be because at this age, children tend to do that, that and that. Which means if you change this about the product, they might be more willing to sort of engage with it. And it was that extra bit of the sort of the strategy and the So what that the, it was, um, flair, leisure, I think was the company at the time and.
They were like, oh, we've never had anybody give us research like this before. Can you do some more? So I was like, okay, I can do some more. And then they recommended me out and it was, I was, I feel so lucky because I was able to do it slowly and build the business up whilst I was looking after my children.
Um, and it just evolved and that was 20 odd years ago, and I've never really looked back.
Azhelle Wade: Wow. Had you, so you just finished your PhD. Had you gone and worked full-time or did you just automatically end up in entrepreneurialism or entrepreneurship?
Amanda Gummer: No. Um, no, I work full-time. I went from my PhD. I was, um, running a charity in London that was helping families at risk of, um, breakdown.
And it wasn't that there was anything sinister going on. The families were just not coping. It was just, and again, I went in and I could just see what happened when you sat and played with the kids and when you encourage and when you, when you help the parents. Play with the kids and I understand that there wasn't a right or a wrong way and you just let the kids play and, and that sort of bonding and the the power of play to help.
Vulnerable families thrive was just, was mind blowing. So, and I didn't know it at the time, but again, that was, it's just everything I've done has made me more and more convinced that that plays the answer to so many of our issues that we face today. So, yeah, so I did that first and then I was in, um, living in Hong Kong for a couple of years teaching English and special needs in developing a, an afterschool program for, um, for children.
Within Hong Kong, um, because the language off of schools had gone back from English to Mandarin, so there was a big demand for English language education programs. So I developed some programs out there. So I was working, yeah, I was working for a good, for years before I, I got the entrepreneurial bug.
Azhelle Wade: Oh, I see.
Okay. But ever since, so I wanna talk like fundamentally children, how exactly. How does it work? Like, do you use outside, um, sources or services to perform your market research? Are you on the ground gathering all the people holding the focus groups, sending out the surveys yourself, and then, um, compiling all that data and dissecting it for your clients?
Is that what you're doing?
Amanda Gummer: Yeah, so I'm really lucky. I've got an amazing team around me and we've got, um, psychologists and, and people with education backgrounds and stuff. So the B but we do the, we do a lot of the research in-house and we have, um, international partners. So we have, um, Tanina, who's our US Director of Research.
Mm-hmm. Um, based in New Jersey. So we've got a testing center both in the states and in the uk. And then we have partners around the, around the world. Um, one of the things I'm really. Picky about is our research methodology because it's really important to me that you observe kids playing naturally because you can get kids to say anything.
If you, if you ask them the right questions and you put a camera in front of them and give them a new toy and go, what do you think? They go, yeah, it's great because they know that that's supposed to say, right? So if you're actually wanting proper research and really to get under the skin of, of a product and or a brand and to know what kids really think, you've gotta do it naturally.
And, and it's very observational and there's a real. There's a skill to that and I think we're, we are quite particular about that. So we've got partners in, um, different countries who have native eng, native language speakers in each of those territories. So if we are doing something in France or, okay. We use, we use those partners to, to make sure that we've got that authenticity and, and the, we don't miss those little nuances that you get when you're observing kids.
So, yeah, so we've been doing that and we, I, I stay as, as active in the research as I can. Um, but I have, like I said, I've got a great team who, Really believe in the way that we do things. And we do. I do think we, we approach things slightly differently. We have the play cafe in our offices that we use to just, you know, day in, day out.
We're observing kids playing and it just, it gives us that, I think it, it gives us something different to, to a sort of traditional market research agency. I would
Azhelle Wade: love, do you have a story you could share, uh, maybe an, an older, older story from years ago, so you're not breaching any confidentiality where your research really created a big change in a product that ultimately led to its success?
Amanda Gummer: Yeah, so there was one of the, one of the early research projects we did actually was for like a, my first computer. And it was all very, very young kids and it had a big, um, joystick and, and some big buttons, and it just, but it didn't, it didn't sell. And, and the kids were getting frustrated and they, they weren't, and they didn't pl enjoy playing with it.
And it's because there was, there was some little buttons that really like the volume and the, the on off switch and everything. And they were, they were quite stiff and needed quite firm pin grip. And the age of the children didn't have. They were playing with, it didn't have sufficiently developed pin grip to be able to, to move the buttons and to be that precise.
So they couldn't, they couldn't access a lot of the features. And it was, um, it was when they sort of, when we user tested it and we realized that it was like, oh, okay, that. That makes sense. And they, they changed it and, and I think it went on to do really well. And there were, there are a few things like that is, um, especially in the app world actually, you know, onboarding stuff, you know, people who write, play for preschoolers when actually kids know the arrow.
They don't know that they can't read play, but they know what the, the play arrow means. And there's things that, there's a sort of common pitfalls people make when they're designing toys and it's amazing how many people make the same mistakes.
Azhelle Wade: That would be an incredible resource if you made a document of the top five mistakes people make.
Amanda Gummer: Um, I think that's in, in the, in the
Azhelle Wade: pipeline. It is. Okay. Yeah, that would be amazing. So let me know when it's available so I can link it in this episode, because that sounds like a great one. So how long does the research process take? Because if somebody's listening to this and they're already thinking like, oh, I wanna work with Dr.
Amanda Ner, how long does it take? From, here's my product to getting the results like you described.
Amanda Gummer: So that's one of the reasons that we set up the the good play guide. So, um, we were doing the research for companies and they were like, this is great. We love the insights, but it's quite time consuming and quite costly to get everybody in, recruit h via, hire a venue and all this sort of stuff.
And at the same time, my kids were at school and all the parents from their class. Were like, you work in toys. What, what Good for kids and how do I know if the thing that they're asking me for is gonna be any good for them? Right. And so we created the play guide and what that does is the, the accreditation there can take as little, you know, we do that turnaround in a couple of weeks if needed, because we can just get the product in, we can, we can test it.
Very quickly. And it's because we have a network of play clubs, um, and play testers that we use on a regular basis to, to do that sort of good play guide accreditation piece. But the, um, the more in-depth focus group where you are maybe comparing ages of children and how they engage with it, or whether are a products good for special needs or stuff like that, that takes a bit longer.
But we normally, I mean, we were pretty agile and we've turned somebody. Pretty big projects around, you know, pretty quickly. So yeah, we, we pride ourselves on being able, because we have that network ready set up. We've got the play cafe downstairs. We've got a network of, of schools and, and nurseries and special needs schools and afterschool clubs that we have regular contact with.
So we are pretty well set up like that.
Azhelle Wade: Okay, so I'm looking at your website. Um, Dr. Gummer Good play guide. Um, and one of my students actually did just get awarded, I think you're good, I dunno if it's good Activities guide. Maybe cuz she had a sticker book. So talk to me a little bit about the process of people becoming accredited through your progra
I.
Amanda Gummer: Okay. So we test the products with kids. That's really important. Okay. Um, and on on multiple children as well, because, you know, with kids they could just be having a bad day and they could give you, you know, and, and parents if, so, we are very particular about the way that we test and we test with multiple children on multiple occasions, and we create a rapport to, and then we have our experts look at it and, and all the experts have a background in child development, education, something relevant to enable them to sort of, Out that developmental benefits, which is why we're able to then bullet point what the, the product does for the kids.
We're able to make sure it matches the age that the manufacturers are saying it ma it it's aimed at Ah-huh. And we're able to get some sort of real re really in depth expert quotes, which, um, We're getting so, so many great, great feedback from the, from the clients because it helps with the selling, right?
Because the sales team don't necessarily know what products do. But if you've got a one pager that says, okay, this is good for fine motor control and, and turn taking and social development, I. That's something that the, the sales team can tell their, their customers and the customers can, you know, the shops and the retailers can tell their customers.
And it just, it helps people make informed decisions make and, and from a sustainability point as well, because you are buying the things that are gonna do well for your kids and they're not gonna end up in landfill after five minutes. So it's a win-win. And also you're building loyalty because people go, okay, well that works and I know it's a good toy and so I'm gonna buy more from that brand because, We know they make good toys.
So it's just, it's just really just raising the bar in the industry, helping people do the right thing by kids and making good toys, helping people find those toys, and yeah, that's, that's the reason behind it really. I,
Azhelle Wade: I'm curious, uh, what you would say to somebody that maybe is developing a toy that they believe is good for the industry, but maybe they're getting pushback because it's not the typical push button.
Wow. You know, surprise, sparkle purple, you know, like toy, you know, and, and they're feeling kind of discouraged because they're like, ah, I really wanna create this product, but this industry doesn't seem to get it. What would you say to that
Amanda Gummer: person? So I would look at different markets for start because I think the European market is very different from the American market and I think the, the UK sort of sits in between.
Um, but in terms of. More traditional play values, you know, the kind of the wooden construction toys or the toy trains that the kind of, the old-fashioned, I, I don't like saying old-fashioned cuz it feels negative, but it's, it's not meant to be. But that traditional simple play patterns that are really good for kids imagination, they're still very popular in Europe, whereas in, in the States it is very much license driven.
There's lot, it's gotta have some gimmicks and some lights and some sounds and stuff. So I would say that. If you're getting pushback in the us, maybe look at other markets, but also look at maybe doing some kind of proof of concept. So impact measurement studies to make sure to show that it's got benefits.
Because if you can prove the benefits, you then can get into the homeschool market. You can look, get, get into schools themselves, you can get into the child minder settings, those kind of things because they are looking for stuff that is gonna help the kids thrive. And it's not just gonna be the next pink, sparkly, gimmicky toy.
There, they're looking for stuff with. Credibility and substance. So yeah, I love it when, when people come to us with something that's been really well thought through and well designed and, and, and they wanna take that evidence-based approach to, to marketing and to sort of further, further product development.m.
Azhelle Wade: Can we talk more about, I, no one's ever on this podcast talked about the home taking it to the homeschool market or any kind of school market. So have you helped your clients do that? If so, what's the process
Amanda Gummer: of doing that? Yeah, so we do, so the first thing is to check how it helps kids develop. So that's, that's a sort of a, a bit of a focus group and, and some observed play testing and seeing what the skills it is that, that, that product helps develop.
Um, and then it's about developing things like lesson plans or activity plans. Lesson plans are more for the schools, but the activity, the educational activity plans that we, we develop for clients can go in, they can be like sort of downloaded from the website or they can go into the box and, and be part of the product itself.
And it just gives you that, it gives parents that steer to say, okay. This, this is gonna help my kids learn these skills, therefore, we can do it. And, and what's really great is when you see products that have got a bit more versatility in them. So you go, okay, well the main play pattern for this toy is this, but if you do this and this with it, Then, you know, it opens up a whole new, new area of learning, which is great for kids development in, you know, either x n z age range, or it just widens the curriculum that you can and apply it to.
So, you know, it's, it's great for, for helping people see the, the wider benefits of their products and, and make the most of communicating that at the educational value to, to the parents and the, and the educators.
Azhelle Wade: No, that does seem really valuable. So tell me a little bit about, I, I, I've talked about your successes and the companies that you've built, but I wanna know a little bit about your struggle.
Have you experienced any struggle in building this business in the uk? Trying to expand it globally?
Amanda Gummer: Oh yeah. I don't know any entrepreneurs that haven't, but yes, so I would say my. Biggest headache. Certainly recently. My biggest, I wanna say, I'm gonna, I'm gonna put my hands up and say it was a misstep. We tried e-commerce.
Oh my goodness. That was not fun. Um, e-commerce for what? For your clients? Yeah. So we were trying to, so we've got the reviews on the Good Play Guide and we were like, well, let's, let's sell the products ourselves. You know, we can, we can act as a retailer as well. Absolute. No, no. It. It muddied what we were doing because we stopped being that independent authority on toys and play.
Because people were like, well, you're selling the products. Of course you're gonna say the good. So that, that was a no-no. And just the logistics and dealing with the courier service and the, oh my goodness. And the return returns and the, the stock levels and the, oh yeah, no, I didn't know that you were doing, doing that.
No. Well, we stopped doing it a while back now. It was, it was a few years ago and it was Oh, okay. It was an expensive learning curve. But yeah, so it's not, it's not Vince, it's me sailing all the way, but you know, we, we learn from it and we move on and actually, you know, I think we're better for it because we are much clearer on who we are and what we do.
And we are experts in child development and play, and we wanna make people. We wanna help people make good stuff for kids, and that's, that's what we do. We're not, we're not a retailer. We don't want to be a retailer ever. You could
Azhelle Wade: always eat an easier route. I don't, you probably already do it, is having the, the affiliate links on your site.
Yeah. Right. That's the easier route, you know? No, no longer.
Good reasons
Amanda Gummer: for doing it at the time. Yeah. Said there's one thing could you not have done. That would be it. That would be actually really would several.
I love the
Azhelle Wade: honesty. Yeah, it's, it's awful When you're, when it's your own business and you make a misstep, it's just, cuz not only are you embarrassed and ashamed, but you have to fix it. And like, it's not like, yeah, right. Yeah. It's not like when you make a mistake at your job and you're just like, oh, I'm going home.
It's 5:00 PM It's like, you've made a mistake and now you've gotta apologize. You've gotta fire people, you've gotta hire people, you've gotta take money outta somewhere. Like you've gotta do so much work while you're being embarrassed and ashamed. I've had that happen. It was a sad time. It was a sad time.
I cried so much. I don't, anyway,
Amanda Gummer: I, I don't trust people who've never made mistakes. I just think that's, it doesn't, it doesn't feel right. I think you,
Azhelle Wade: yeah, it's unrealistic. No. Yeah. It's,
Amanda Gummer: and I like that. What is it? If you're not making mistakes, you're not making anything. I like that approach. Oh my gosh. Or
Azhelle Wade: you're not, wait, there was one, one day my, I was feeling sad cuz I'm like stressed out with my launch right now.
My husband walks by me and he goes, remember. You are a hermit crab. And he walks away and I was like, what? And then he came back and he's like, oh, did you not see like the TikTok I sent you? And I was like, no. And he said, apparently someone said that hermit crabs, you know, they grow out of every shell, you know, so they gr out of one shell and they go onto the next shell and he's like, so pain is just you growing out of the one shell?
And I was like, oh, okay. I get your. Your analogy now, your metaphor, so random. Um, okay. So that's great. Yeah. We all make mistakes. We grow, we learn, we move on to our next shell. Um, what advice, uh, would you give somebody who is thinking about developing a product, uh, in the toy industry?
Amanda Gummer: Okay, so first of all, do your research.
And I'm, that isn't me plugging, I, I mean, go out and look at toy shops and see what's there. I'm not trying, that wasn't me pitching for business at all. Go into toy shops, talk to parents, talk to children, see what they do, and make sure that somebody hasn't already done it, because the, that, you know, good ideas are great, but lots of people have some really good ideas.
And if you are the second person developing the Ruby's cube, You're just another person developing a ruby ski, right? So there's, there's a lot of people that come to us and they've going, oh, and especially with ball games, I find they're like, we've got this great idea for a ball game. It's revelationary.
Um, you know, we've never been done before and, and it's, and it's great. And, and we are remortgaging our house to, too, you know, and I'm like, please don't, please don't stop. Yeah. Make sure, you know, play, test it. Make sure the rules are good. Make sure your instructions are really clear. All of that kind of stuff
Just get the basics right first, but, Yeah, I think the getting into the shops and seeing what's out there and trying to figure out where your product would sit on the shop, I've seen some really great products, really great products fail because, so one of, one of my, one of the best examples was this play case, and it was a, a little sort of, Kids carry on luggage that had a little, um, pullout bit that, that had all the crayons and, and a board game and stuff in it.
Uhhuh. And the idea was that you took the case onto the, onto the plane or the, you know, stuck it in the car and then you just took out the little capsule thing. But the shopkeepers didn't know whether it to put it in with luggage or to put it in with toys. And so they, cause they, because they couldn't see where it was gonna sit in the store.
Right. They didn't buy it. So it was a great concept, but it just, it, it didn't fit. And especially with the way buyers, uh, in the big guys work. You know, they've got a boys' buyer, they've got a girls' buyer, they've got a preschool buyer. Yes. They've got a luggage buyer, they've got a toy buyer, they've got a book buyer.
So a book that with a toy that throws them sometimes. And I it, oh, I've told
Azhelle Wade: people this. Yes. I always tell people this. I'm like, it's better just keep them separate, because one buyer will be afraid to buy it un from another ano from under another buyer. They'll say, I can't have books in the toy section.
The, the boy, the book buyer will be upset. You know, it's like, Yeah.
Amanda Gummer: Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's knowing that kind of, that thinking like that, which is not an issue if you're just gonna sell direct from your website. Right. You can do what you like. Right. But if you are, if you're aiming to get into the big retailers, you've gotta think about where it's gonna sit on the shelf and be very clear about that.
And, and yeah. So there's those kind of things, but I think, yeah, just going out and just, just, just immersing yourself in it. Toy shops, schools, kids, just, you know, fig find, get to know your audience.
Azhelle Wade: So, uh, I've had someone in on market research, uh, come, I've had a market research podcast before where we've talked about quantitative and qualitative, right?
Quantitative. Mm-hmm. What, being that it can be data that's measured and qualitative is like the descriptive one, like things that are kind of how you feel about this. But what I wanna ask you is, What would be your advice to give someone to get good research results? Like how? How do you ask a good quantitative data question?
How do you ask a good qualitative data question? For those people that are just doing the initial research, they're just going out to parents and asking. But I have a feeling like the people that I talk to that say like, oh yeah, I asked all my friends. I'm like, What did you ask them? Like, did you ask them like, yeah, right.
Hey, do you like this toy that I've spent my life savings developing? Like, you know, cause then of course they're gonna say yes. Like, you know, so what's a good, how do
Amanda Gummer: you find good questions? Yeah, so the, the, uh, the names of that is social desirability effect. People will give you the answer they think you want to hear.
And that's one of the tricks, especially with kids in making sure that you, they know that you don't care. So I would, I would try and get somebody who isn't, I mean, the nobody likes being told they've got an ugly baby, right? Yeah. It just, it's, you don't, it's your, you've put your life into this thing and this is your, this is your thing that you care more about than anything else.
And, and somebody's going, oh, yeah, but. Really. Um, so it's very hard to hear. So actually getting a third person, third party to do that doesn't have to be a professional. It can just be, you know, a friend or somebody, but somebody who it's, it's not personal for, and getting them to do some of the play testing, taking it down to a school, a local school, or you know, a.
And after school club or something and just saying, can you just, you know, I'm just interested. Can you give us some honest feedback? And the an easy way to do that so it doesn't feel personal is a questionnaire. So just a quick survey. Don't make it more than a page because I. Um, people will get bored and they won't fill it in, and they will, and if they do fill it in, they probably won't fill it in accurately.
So just some really simple questions. Um, some things that you can compare so you can sort of check over time. So these people said it was a five, okay, we've made this change. Now they're saying it's an eight. That's great. Um, ah, and then, um, but also things that where you get them an opportunity to say, one of my favorite questions is, is if you could tell the people who made this.
About it. What, what would you want them to know? So, you know, if you could talk to the people who were making this story, what would you want to tell them about it? And it just gives it, that opens up quite an interest, interesting response from people. Um, so that it's, it, it's not, is it good? Is it bad? Do you like it, do you not
It could be. I really like it. I just wish it came in blue or, right. It could be. Have you thought about adding this feature? Because a lot of the questions, if you ask closed questions and it's yes or no, or, you know, there's a, there's a, a number of options in terms of your responses. You get the data, you get the quantitative data that you can compare and contrast and you can say, Hey, our 10 people said this, but actually the open-ended questions, they're the ones that really sometimes are, are so insightful, but you've gotta do it in a way that reduces that social desirability effect and, and doesn't make people think that there is a sort of an answer that you're aiming for or that they should be giving.
Azhelle Wade: Oh, that's so good. Yeah, like the quantitative data just says like if this is working, if it's not working, but the qualitative data tells you like what to do about it. Right? Like it tells you like, okay, it's not working. Here's what to do about it. Yes. That's great. Oh, I wanna go more into this actually, but I know we have time, but, Well come on.
Go. Give me some more. This is good stuff. Give me some more like questions. Ok. Like, do you normally do questions that are like one to five versus yes or no? So you have that measurability, and if so, like how do you, like what kind of questions would people ask if they want to test, let's say, let's say like the design aesthetic of
Amanda Gummer: a product.
Okay. So kids particularly, but adults as well. Yeah. It's much easier to answer a question if you've got a frame of reference. So if I was doing, if I've developed a new toy and I was like, I wanna know what people think, I would go and I would buy its closest competitors. So if it was a, I know, I'm trying to think of, of sort of, if it was a building block or something, I would get some Lego, I would get some blue mega, get some, yeah.
Magnetic. Yeah. All of that. I would. Putting it in, and I'd be like, what do you like about this? Which of these do you like most for Star? So you rank them in order why, what, what's the best thing about each one? How does that compare to the others? Because if you can compare and contrast, and especially if you're doing stuff with sort of licenses, okay, so we all like pepper pig, but how does this compare to pepper pig?
Is it better in this way? Is it worse in that way? What? What does it, you know, what do you think the differences are? It gives you something concrete to tag. Or to, you know, to align your answers with, and it makes you go, okay, well I could, well, I understand that in that frame, if you say, give me a number from one to 10, how much you like this?
And they go eight, well, an eight for person A could be a four for person B, because they're just naturally optimistic. And see, they're good in things doesn't mean anything. You've gotta, you've gotta anchor the research to something so it's good. So you, the only, the numbers are only really useful if it's, I give it a five here, now I'm giving it an eight because, So that, that's fine.
Or I give this one a five and I'm giving this, this product a seven. Again, you've got, you've got a, you've got a frame of reference, but giving somebody, uh, I know a new product and going, give me a number of how much you like it from one to 10, and doing that for a hundred people doesn't, it doesn't tell you anything.
Mm.
Azhelle Wade: This is a very good p like a comparative analysis. That's a very good point. Yeah. And anchoring your questions, anchoring your research in something that's really smart. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I guess 20 years,
Amanda Gummer: but also if you're gonna, if you're gonna ask a question, you've gotta know what it means. If they give you a 10 or if they say, you know, you are asking a question.
Okay. And they give you an answer, you've gotta know what that. Then means for your product. So if they go, okay, it's too expensive, well, okay, so does that mean that you would buy it if it was less expensive? Because that's not necessarily the same thing. You, they can say that I'm not gonna pay 50 bucks for this, but it doesn't mean that they would pay 30 because they don't like the fact that it's blue or, you know, there's, right.
You've gotta make sure you are not overinterpreting data as well, and, and making sure that you understand what to do with the answers you get. Because otherwise there's no point in asking the questions if you're not gonna do anything when they, when people give you the answers.
Azhelle Wade: Do you have a favorite book you like you like about this topic?
Amanda Gummer: Um, there is a book called, um, how to Write, how to, how to Write Questionnaires, which I've used. And that's, that's, I can, I can find it. It's quite an old book actually. Yeah. Um, but it was one of the things I used during my, um, research, like my, my studying. Um, and it's something I've gone back to and it's all about sort of, if you ask.
So if you are doing a survey and you, um, people quite often get used, get into habits. So if, if one is always bad and five is always good and they like something mm-hmm. They'll just go down and tick five and they won't necessarily read all of the questions properly. So it's important that you mix them up so that if you're asking a que if you're asking questions, sometimes it's a positive question, sometimes it's a negative question, so that you actually encourage people to read.
Thing and answer every question rather than just going, yeah, I really like it. Five's good, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. Yeah, because that's not, that, that's not helpful
Azhelle Wade: because they're just trying to get it done. Oh, that's very, that's really good. So tell me, what's your biggest success lately? Like, what would you, what would you key is like your most, your biggest success, either 2023 or 2022?
Um,
Amanda Gummer: I'm really proud of the Steam toy framework that we've developed with the ASSO Toy Association. That's been amazing. Um, yeah, it was, I think we developed it in 2021 and we launched the accreditation program the following summer, and the response to that has just been so gratifying. And we, cuz we developed the framework, we made it open access.
Anybody can go on the, on the Toy Association's website and see what the framework looks like. They can make, they can use it for their own product development. So it felt very, Very in line with my ethos of, of just helping people make good stuff for kids and, and raising standards within the industry.
And then I think people wanted, uh, some kind of accreditation for it. And so the Toy Association came and said, well, will you run the, the accreditation program? And. I think, yeah, just the response to that has just been, it's just been lovely and people really value the stamp and it's the same with the good play guide stuff at the accreditations as well.
I think once people know that you can fail and quite a lot of people do fail, but it's not a. It's not necessarily a bad thing, cuz actually a failure on any of those accreditations actually prevents you from having a product that's gonna damage your reputation and damage your brand because you can pull it early, you can fix the problem, you can then resubmit it for the accreditation without charge.
Cuz we, we have that as a sort of a mechanism. So if your product doesn't pass first time, You get to re, you make you get a report, you get told what's wrong, why, why it hasn't made it through, made the grade. But then you can resubmit for free. And I think that's really Oh, that's amazing. Important in making sure that people can benefit from it.
Cuz otherwise it's just a bit of a, a tick box exercise. So we're all about supporting people in, making good, good toys, um, and people. When they ha when, when their products have failed and we've been talking to them about why and what's happened. They've got their designers in, they've gone, right, we need to fix this.
This is, you know, this is really important. Thank you so much for, for highlighting this issue. We haven't realized that was an issue. Yeah. And it's just been, yeah, it's been really you, you never wanna give people bad news. Do you Never wanna say, oh, this has failed. It hasn't made it, but actually, The spirit in which it's been taken has been great.
And then when they then fix the problem and they resubmit it and they get the, the stamp and then they shout about it and they're really proud of it. That, yeah, it's just, it's brilliant. I love it.
Azhelle Wade: Aw, that's, how long have you been doing the, the
Amanda Gummer: accreditation? So we've been doing Good Play Guide, um, the Good Play Guide?
Yeah. For, since, yeah, it's for, since 2012. Um. Oh, wow. And then the STEAM accreditation is only since 2021.
Azhelle Wade: So the, so the Good Play Guide, that's the one where you can reapply. If you, if you don't pass, you can do that. It's for both of them. Oh, both, yeah. Oh, amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Do, do you run with STEAM accreditation also?
Oh, amazing. Okay, great. Yeah. Oh, that's
Amanda Gummer: so cool. And yeah, and that was part of the conversation when we were setting up the accreditation program with the, the steam, with the Toy Association. Couple of our sort of usps, if you like. One is it's for the life of the product. It's an accreditation, it's not an award.
Okay. So making sure that people knew that they could use it on their packages. It wasn't gonna date, it wasn't gonna be. Right. You know, they don't have to reapply every year. Because for me, if I'm a parent and I'm looking for products, I wanna know what good toys there are. I don't necessarily want this year's best toy.
I wanna know whatever it is is good for my kids. So that was really important. So we made sure that the STEAM accreditation followed that. So as long as you don't make changes to the product, The, the accreditation is valid for the life of the product. And the other thing was, yeah, making sure that it was just, it was really clear on how to, how to improve and, and it wasn't a kind of pay to play or anything.
And I think that was, that was the other thing that was, was important when we were setting this up. No,
Azhelle Wade: that's really valuable. There aren't a lot, there are definitely not a lot of awards like that in the toy industry, so that's really valuable. And you're actually doing the research. It's not even just, I mean, even some of the awards that are more reputable in the industry are still just people, adults sitting around a table of analyzing a product, not necessarily playing with the product, with kids or seeing or watching kids play with the product.
So that's really, yeah. Upstanding, I think.
Amanda Gummer: Thank you. I know that is one of the things that we are really sort of proud of and passionate about is, is right, if you're gonna check a toy works, you've gotta check it with the end users, right? Yeah. And it's amazing what you learn. I mean, I learn from kids all the time that, you know, you give them a product and you think they're gonna play with it in a certain way, and then they take it off and play with it in a whole different way.
And you're like, yeah, oh my
Azhelle Wade: goodness. That's, you know, they just do their own thing. I, I was like talking to like a niece one time and she was telling me how she took apart her bar Barbie dolls. Bodies and like started making new Barbie doll bodies and I was like, okay, that's not what you're supposed to do with them, but I guess that's what you wanna do.
So maybe we need to make a new toy where you can make a Monster Barbie or something, because clearly that's what you wanna do. Um, okay, so my last question for you, I'd love to close out the podcast with this is what toy or game blew your mind as a kid?
Amanda Gummer: So, um, again, probably giving my age away on this. I loved the popup Fi Fisher Price Treehouse and the fact that it would, you could, I mean, yeah, you're probably too young.
Cute, and it was, And I won it as from, from a fancy dress competition for the Queen's Jubilee. And, and I got this treehouse and it, and it popped up. And so you had, and it looked like a tree and it had a little sort of swing and stuff in it, but then you popped it up and then there's this whole little world and the kids and the, the characters cooked and the slide and they had little swing and it was a whole, whole treehouse thing.
But I love the fact that you then popped it back down and it just looked like a tree. That's
Azhelle Wade: great. Ah, I found it. I found it. Family treehouse. Oh, this, you is really cute. Okay. And actually, because you, are you, I wanna ask one more question. What toy or game blew your mind recently? That was a recent good play guide winner that you were like, whoa, this is really cool.
Amanda Gummer: Oh, you put me on the spot now. Um, cause I, I mean I, I like some of the, sort of, the more simple, I like, I like some of the, there's, there's quite a lot of the board games and stuff. Yeah. Um, I think there's, there's been some really good ball games. Probably some of the, the learning resources, robots, the, the rrc and botley, those I think are a really good way of getting tech to young kids.
I think they are. Oh, what is it? Um, they're really impressive. Um, Botley. B A t L E y. Yeah. From learning resources. That's great. Um, this. There are just so many. I mean, some of the, the preschool stuff and the really baby stuff, I like the, the multisensory stuff. So some of the Lamar stuff's been great. There is, I mean, there's just so, so many.
And then I, you know, things like gag, you know, you can't, and, and the sort of those, the construction toys, you can't, you can't really go wrong with those. And I love the fact that they're becoming more environmentally friendly and, you know, you've got, people are, people are really trying to make that plastic sustainable.
And I think that, you know, that's, That's great. Yeah, I think that's, I is, I'm, there's probably some really good ones I've missed out and I feel bad. No, I think the
Azhelle Wade: Botley one is a great, we got Family Trio. We got Botley. Those are perfect. I just wanna have, have a toy to talk about with this episode. I love doing that.
So where can people learn more about you, connect with you online, maybe apply to the Good Play Guide? Where should they go?
Amanda Gummer: Okay, so, um, probably the easiest place is the website. So good play guide.com to see the reviews. Um, and there is a, there is a work with US page on that, but actually, fundamentally Children is the, the business page, and you can submit products through that.
Um, that's probably the easiest page, and that's where you can find out a bit more about some of our previous projects, um, our other services, training, research consultancy, all those kind of things. And then, yeah, I'm on LinkedIn, so Amanda at LinkedIn. Perfect. Thank you Page.
Azhelle Wade: Simon, thank you so much for being here today.
This was a really informative conversation. We got right to it. Thank you. Thanks, Aja. It was a
Amanda Gummer: pleasure talking to you. Believe talking to you. Yeah,
Azhelle Wade: me too. Yeah, likewise. Take Take care.
Amanda Gummer: Thanks for listening to Making It in The Toy Industry Podcast with Azhelle Wade. Head over to the toy coach.com for more information, tips, and advice.
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