Episode #65: Creating A Hit Kids’ TV Show with Farnaz Esnaashari Creator of Shimmer & Shine
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What does it take to create a hit kids’ TV show? Well in today’s episode, Farnaz Esnaashari, Creator of the hit kids’ tv show Shimmer and Shine joins us to answer that question and so many more. Farnaz shares her journey in the world of production and media, starting from her first internship and taking us to her first few pitches. What you’ll learn from this episode is that it takes persistence, grit, and a never-give-up attitude to make it in this business, but, if you’ve been listening to this podcast for any length of time, I’m sure you already know that.
In this episode, you’ll discover that the process of developing a hit tv show is long and getting an opportunity to develop a show is more based in relationships than any one idea. Farnaz earned her ticket by working for years in production, but she shares how different that process looks today. This episode is for you if you’re a budding toy entrepreneur with a new show idea, OR you’re an established toy company seeking to make your existing IP more toyetic. Get ready to gain a fresh perspective on how to approach and connect the development of your IP and your future toy line.
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Connect with Farnaz on LinkedIn.
Follow Farnaz on Instagram and stay up to date with all of the projects she’s working on!
This episode is sponsored in part by the Toy Book. The Toy Book is the go-to destination for all the latest toy industry news and updates. Visit thetoybook.com for more information.
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Azhelle 00:00
You are listening to Making It in The Toy Industry, Episode Number 65.
Intro/Outro + Jingle 00:06
Welcome to Making It in The Toy Industry, a podcast for inventors and entrepreneurs like you. And now your host Azhelle Wade.
Azhelle 00:16
Well, hey there toy people Azhelle Wade here and welcome back to another episode of the toy coach podcast Making It in The Toy Industry. This is a weekly podcast and today's episode is sponsored in part by the toy book. The toy book is the go to destination for all the latest toy industry news and updates. Visit thetoybook.com for more information. If you're a parent and your child's favorite color is glitter, then you may be very familiar with the work of today's guest on the podcast Farnaz Esnaashari is the creator of the beloved children show Shimmer & Shine. With over 17 years of experience in animation Farnaz made her way from intern to creator and executive producer at Nickelodeon, where she oversaw post production on Dora the Explorer and developed and sold her own show ideas one of her most popular being Shimmer and Shine. Inspired by her Iranian American upbringing, the series has strong female heroes set against a vibrant multicultural fantasy world. Today, Farnaz continues to develop children's shows with Spin Master, Disney and Nickelodeon, while also becoming a published author of the book Little Leo released by Simon and Schuster. Today's podcast episode has been in the works for some time, and I am so excited to have an expert in children's media and production with us today to share her journey with you all my toy people. The big question that I wanted to answer today is how did a girl with a dream evolve into a woman with a booming career in animation and children's media? Now, Farnaz and I started the conversation around how she began her career in animation. My first question for her was, why she chose the field she did. And her answer was so relatable that it might surprise you. Here's a clip from the interview.
Farnaz 02:21
I started like many of us just loving to draw as a kid, right? And many, three second I had I was drawing, drawing, drawing and of course obsessed with Disney, like most kids of the 90s and 80s. were right. Um, so just always drawing and I eventually was like, Well, I guess that's what I want to go to school for. So I went to school for animation. And I went to Cal State Fullerton, I got my BA there. And at one point was able to get an internship at Nickelodeon. So I was working in the post production department of all things. I loved it, you know, an internship, I would say is incredible, because coming out of college, you know what they teach you in school, but you don't really know how it applies in real life get to like a studio setting. And you see how specified each job is it really opens your eyes to the industry and what it all really means. And for me, I've never seen it until that moment. And once I got there, I just absolutely fell in love and I wanted to be there like I knew I wanted to be there. It felt right.
Azhelle 03:35
So Farnaz was fueled by what she learned at this internship with Nick. And once she finished her college degree, she moved away from home moving to the city of her dream job. And a few weeks later, a position opened up.
Farnaz 03:50
Well, there was a position open on my life as a teenage robot as a production assistant. He gave good recommendations. They went and asked and they're like we hired you over the other candidates because of your internship and what they said and how you were in the internship was like, awesome. So I got in as a production assistant. I did that for about six months, when I got offered a coordinator position on Go Diego Go in post production. So back to where I interned. But it was one of those things where it was like, the minute I took that job, I knew that there was a glass ceiling that the next position was post supervisor. And then what what am I going to do if I can't grow beyond post supervisor, right? And I told myself, you know, you'll figure it out when we get there. Just take the job and then we'll go from there. Now, I took the job, and it was great. But yeah, I got stuck. I got a little stuck the way it was structured, it made it really difficult for me to even get to supervisor so I really had to push hard to get there. I mean, at one point, I was working 80 hours a week. And because I was on salary and getting paid for 40, but you know, you got to do whatever. Right. So I finally made it to supervisor and I was on Dora the Explorer and Ni Hao, Kai-Lan. I was doing that. But in two, you know, before that I kept trying to move into supervisor and the old boss at the time, he was kind of more old school in his ways, and you couldn't wear, you know, tight clothes and be giggly and have a brain, he was very negative about me moving up. And so in 2006, I was like, You know what, I'm going to show him that I'm worth more than that. I'm going to develop my own show, and then he can't stop me.
Azhelle 05:52
But Farnaz had a few big challenges to overcome while trying to develop that show. First being her own success, she'd reached supervisor and accomplishment that left her busier than ever. Second, she was balancing pretty heavy politics at work. And third, she was planning for a pretty big day in her personal life,
Farnaz 06:15
Ended up getting to supervisor and I was just so slammed that I couldn't do much of any anything on my own. At that point. I was just kind of surviving. Because it was also a test, he put me in a difficult position to see whether or not I fail, because either way he won. If I didn't fail, great. His shows were delivered on time. If I did fail, he could say, See, I told you guys, she's no good. And he could get rid of me. Right? So failure was not an option. So you work around the clock 24/7
Azhelle 06:47
Wow
Farnaz 06:48
During which time I also planned a wedding and got married?
Azhelle 06:51
Oh my gosh, wait. Could you? for people that don't know, because I honestly feel like I don't know, what was your day to day like in that role.
Farnaz 06:58
So as opposed to supervisor, you have to oversee the budget and the schedule for final delivery of an episode. So at any given time, you could have about four or five different episodes open, you're at the stage where it has come back from overseas, you're noting it. And on a lot of those shows. The retake process was very heavy, because we had consultants coming in from all over. So like on me how we had a cultural consultant, we have network executives, we had production executives, and we had research consultants who like developmentally with children and language consultants, since we were teaching languages. So I have to get all those notes from everyone, by a certain date, track everything down, organize it all, then sit down with my supervising producer. And we'd have to go through everything and address all the notes. And I'd have to issue kind of our responses back making sure that we have the materials all set to the right place at the right time and getting it from everyone, right. And then you know, making sure making sure it gets to color corrections, sound design, so sound effects, music, all of that. And basically bringing it all together and getting it ready to go on air. So you know, in the case of like Dora, for example, we would do research testing, so they would put it in front of kids and they show it to them. And if kids didn't understand what was going on. Well, we did something crazy that no other show did, we would completely redo the scene in post production. So everything that had been shipped to overseas would get scratched, and we'd rebuild stuff if kids weren't understanding. So I mean, that's part of doors success was the amount of like research and testing they did with kids to really make sure that kids understood the show and love the show and maybe even like track and mark where kids liked it more were they were engaged more versus not. So that all came into a giant report and it got reviewed so many different stages of the way to make sure kids were following the show the way that was intended, you know, so but we would oversee the post production end of that in making sure that all the changes get in and and kids understand while still getting it on air in time. And then distribution to international markets. So the thing about that is it was kind of the perfect storm because I had done so many years of production. But I've also gone to school for so many years of the creative. So it kind of worked really well once I got into shimmer because I had a little bit of everything right, there was a different understanding.
Azhelle 09:45
So at this point, Farnaz brought up Shimmer and Shine and I couldn't wait to ask her more about the sensational children show. I really wanted to know where the idea came from why it was so well received. And this question led her down a rabbit hole of memories. And she shares what an earlier version of the show actually was. So I asked her this, do you remember exactly where you were when you came up with the idea for Shimmer and Shine?
Farnaz 10:16
So it's like I've been asked that question before, like, people think it's kind of like it just comes to you. It doesn't. It's so many different variables and variations of the show before you finally get there that you can barely remember. Imagine writing an essay, and you go back and proofread it 500 times. And you just keep changing it and changing it and changing it. And by the time you're on version, like 78, you don't really remember what version one was anymore. But 78 definitely better, right?
Azhelle 10:52
I have to say, I did digging. And I read somewhere that you said it used to be a spelling show, it was interesting.
Farnaz 10:59
It was called abcdef-Genie. Um, Zach was actually our main character, and there was only Shimmer. And her name was Nia at the time. And she had to be able to spell the word that, that she was wishing for. And she had like this magic bag. And but yeah, it was originally a show about literacy. And it got tabled and sent to international. And we started redeveloping with international, when it came back from international to the US market. And I had to redevelop again, it's a long story, but it's like it went through so many different versions.
Azhelle 11:39
So when you first pitched it, because I use like I read that you had there was a opportunity with Nick Jr. and you pitched it. And this was your big moment, right? Like, you're like you said, you were trying to show people that you can do more and you deserve to be there. Do you remember what it looked like? Or what it was that people kind of latched on to?
Farnaz 12:00
A big portion of development is actually about relationships. And executives want to know that you're someone that they want to work with, because it's a partnership, right? When you become a creator of a show, you are now in a partnership with the company. Because at the end of the day, it's still a business, right? And they need to know that the person that they have there can creatively satisfy it, but also be a good partner. You know, when I was on Ni Hao we were in like a really difficult position. We had really hard delivery dates. And, you know, like I said, I worked around the clock, and we got it done. And not only do we get it done, I got us on schedule, and even sometimes ahead of schedule, which was like no one was expecting. So through that process, the team really liked me. And I was on maternity leave with my son. He was only maybe like two months old. And they sent out a flyer and it said from Nick Jr come pitches your ideas. And I called my my ex husband and I said, Hey, we got to go pitch. And he's like, we don't have an idea. I'm like, it doesn't matter. We'll figure it out. We'll come up with an idea. We'll go pitch because to me, it was my only way out of being like at my glass ceiling, right? I dropped my like three year old off with my neighbor over there. Can you watch my kid? Um, she agreed. And we went into pitch and right before us was Butch Hartman. You know who that is?
Azhelle 13:42
Oh, no, no I don't.
Farnaz 13:43
Creator of The Fairly Oddparents. Oh, you know, he had like a pretty good track history, right? Like sweating bullets. Like, oh my gosh, we have to go in after this. Like legends. Like really? And who are we? like,
Azhelle 13:59
right, right.
Farnaz 14:00
And my ex at the time was like, you don't know what he pitched? Just go in there confident. And let's just you just worry about us. I'm like, Yeah, yes, he's right. But you know, you get nervous. We go up there. And guess what?
Azhelle 14:12
What? What?
Farnaz 14:18
My executives from Ni Hao, Kai-Lan who I had worked so hard to get the show on track and build a good relationship with we're now the new Nick Jr. Development executives.
Azhelle 14:30
Wow
Farnaz 14:31
And I had no idea that I was coming into pitch. So it's just kind of crazy, like the way things happen sometimes, you know, and we were pitching a detective show and it was called Detective Sam Camp. They're like, Look, we don't want your idea. But we love you and we love kind of the way that you guys are thinking and we just want you guys to take this creative assignment and pitch us some ideas. So from there, we ended up in the loop of people who got called for different creative assignments, and to give their pitch take on it. So it was like if it was the American idols, you know, competition, we were making it to LA week all the time, right? We're making it to LA for about five years.
Azhelle 15:20
Wow
Farnaz 15:22
Five years of different development projects, different things from one idea to the next, it got to the point where I had to have my own in development with them, plus helping them figure out some of their other stuff like I kind of just became part of their wheelhouse. It wasn't like I was really getting paid much to do that. It was just showing, you know, people what I'm capable of, and helping create more opportunities for myself to move forward. And I remember someone once in a meeting, said, poor Farnaz, she's always climbing up the hill just to have the rug taken out from under her. Oh, I don't think he realized how horrible that feeling was. But I just said without hesitation, I said, you know, the way that I see it, development is like the lotto, you got to be at the right place at the right time for lightning to hit at that exact moment. They said, but you know, as it is, at least I've got a ticket, I'm just waiting for my numbers to be called, there's a ton of other people who don't have a ticket at all.
Azhelle 16:29
How do people even get a ticket? If they're not working in the field? Like in like, basically, you've started your whole career there, you spent years at that company? How and you built those relationships? Where do people begin, if they don't have that, they just have the idea.
Farnaz 16:44
I mean, it, it used to be a lot harder, I feel like now with social media, with YouTube with all these other platforms, right, with podcasts, with all these other things that exists now, you have more ways to get recognized and get the attention of the studios than you did before. Before it was a lot tougher. Like I would say, it was definitely easier if you were already in there somehow, you know, and knew someone and then that someone moved you to someone else. But now it's like, I mean, like look at Baby Shark, for example. They're a huge brand now with Nickelodeon. But that just started as something on YouTube, right, and it caught on and then the Nick exact found it and kind of kept going with it from there. So nowadays, it's a little bit different. You can kind of, there's people just sell an idea straight to streaming. And it just depends like if you have some sort of proof of concept, something that you can kind of show what it is you want to do. And these days, honestly, I mean, I'm probably not the best person to say this, because my social media following is mediocre at best. But it makes a big difference. It really does. They are looking at all those things that they never really looked at before. So you got more access now.
Azhelle 18:15
When you were pitching all of the shows that you were pitching to develop, and then you were helping them develop what kind of things were you preparing? Like in that pitch? Was it a script? was it like?
Farnaz 18:25
So it depends from place to place, right? I mean, I'm still pitching right now. And it really depends on the company. And not only the company, the executives, every single person that you deal with is a different person. And as a different person, they like to see different things in that process, right. So you know, I've gotten some pitch deals where it's like, we don't like your idea, we already have something like it, but we like you and we just want to work with you. And let's just find something, right, you're like sweet. But, and then you get others where it's like they really want to see the whole thing figured out, they really want to know that you know what it is before they invest in it. So it just depends on kind of who you're pitching to you and what you're pitching, I would say key is to be able to adapt and adjust and be resilient. And quickly, very quickly. You don't have time to lick your wounds, like you've got to kind of assess quickly. Okay, the person that I am working with right now, what do they want to see from me? And then you just got to go do it.
Azhelle 19:38
And give it to him? Yeah
Farnaz 19:40
Yeah
Azhelle 19:41
Same thing and toys and toy world have a buyer says like, I like it, but I want it to be like this. You better adapt quickly. Yeah. Before you lose the opportunity, because then somebody else will do it.
Farnaz 19:52
Exactly. Somebody else will come in with something close to it and then your death.
Azhelle 19:57
Our conversation moved into an Analyzing the relationship of animated TV shows, and the toys that are built from those worlds. Now, Farnaz his career has been focused in animation. But I wondered, did she see a connection between the animation industry and the toy industry? And how hard was she working to make that relationship feel cohesive?
Farnaz 20:23
That was one thing that even the executives that Nick always told me I was very different in that I saw it very holistically the series and the toyline, they were all part of the same, the toy line is just an extension of the world that we create, so that the kids can play in that world, like when you treat it as such, then it all really comes together magically. But if you treat them as two separate pieces, they're always going to be battling each other. So for me, they're all one in the same. And before anybody even asked, I thought of it that way. So when we were working on the character designs, I was picturing them as dolls. And I remember my exact words, were I want every little girl to want this character in their hand as adult. So it's like, if you just think about it all is one piece, because when they're holding that character, now they are that character, and now they are in that character's world. So why wouldn't you think of it as one?
Azhelle 21:24
I think it's beautiful. I think you're right. But now you're making me think of this, this big question I had for you. I have so many inventors and entrepreneurs that reach out to me, and they already have great toy ideas. But they built these two ideas on the backs of book ideas, or show or TV show concepts that they already have. And I would just love to hear from you, someone who's been there and done it, what advice would you give to somebody if they want to turn their story into a TV show, and they want to build it out so that maybe they can one day, have a toy line and go with it.
Farnaz 22:00
So what I would say is, it just has to be sincere, and it has to happen organically. Because the second it does it. Although the viewer might not be as sophisticated in the world of toys and how it all works. They do know how it makes them feel when they watch something that feels like a forced infomercial, as opposed to like a natural part of the story and the characters. Right. So that was always a very important thing to me was that it didn't feel gross, it didn't feel like shoving merchandise down people's throats. Recognize is just an extension of our characters. So you know, if it still feels true to our world, then it's gonna happen. If it doesn't feel true to our world, it's not gonna happen.
Azhelle 22:55
So as she developed Shimmer and Shine, foreigners expressed to me that she began feeling frustrated by the disjointed process of trying to connect the brand to the toy products. But she believed that there was a different, more integrated way to plan and develop the show and the toy line in tandem. So she sat down one day, and figured it out, she developed a different formula for her show, one that would make it even more toyetic and aligned with the timelines of the product team and the animation team.
Farnaz 23:31
Well, I sat down one day, because I was I was getting a little frustrated. And I needed to understand. So I sat down with the head of toys and consumer products, and I just picked his brain. And it was a three hour lunch. And I brought my notepad and I wrote everything down from like, you know how it all works strategically on the business side for them. And then I reverse engineered that into the creative side. And we literally had seasons threes writing schedule on the wall. I came back the next day, I said, Take it all down. And they're like what was like, take it all down. We're changing thing. And they're like, What do you mean, I'm like, I know what to do now. So we kind of rebuilt everything with the information that I had and how I reverse engineered it. And then from there, we were able to do it season after season where essentially like the idea is that you want to give a refresh on shelf. Right? A reason why, why do we want to come back and purchase again, right? I already have this doll. Why do I need it again? Well, that's where in the world of Shimmer and Shine. We started really unlocking different areas of Army false, because every time we went to this new magical world attributes, there's new characters, there's new outfits, there's new vehicles essentially, but it's like instead of a magic carpet, we have bizarre recordings instead of you know, it gives us tools for different storytelling as well. So it started to happen in a more organic way. And once they saw that, I could do that, like we kind of, we kind of changed the way we were handling toy and creative.
Azhelle 25:17
That's very smart.
Farnaz 25:19
Yeah, it actually it was, it was like a giant puzzle. And then it just felt so good. When I understood it. I was like, Yes, it was chicken or egg, you know, three steps forward three steps back. Because you know, what the difficulty we were running into in the first like season or two was that, you know, we'd be on our production schedule, right. But consumer products is on a different schedule, you know, and consumer products needs to see where the production schedule is going before they can make certain choices, right? So they're stuck waiting for us. And we're getting ahead, and now we're stuck waiting for them. So it's like, it was just not set up to work organically in that way. Where if they could see what we were thinking before we got started, then they could say this will work for us. This won't, right. But by the time they saw it, we're already so far down the line, that it's gonna be a big problem to reconfigure everything. I mean, it's doable, but it's a headache, right?
Azhelle 26:23
That is a hugely valuable takeaway, like I love that is something that I think all of my inventors and entrepreneurs that are coming up with story ideas can look at their story ideas from a new perspective, to figure out how to make them more toyetic, basically, yes, that's so great.
Farnaz 26:40
Yeah. And like, first, we just start with your idea, you know, and as your idea grows and develops, then you'll find opportunities for all of that. So I would say don't start from just the toy. Start from the story and the characters. And then once you kind of ground that, you can figure out the other elements. When you have like a problem to solve. You start with the main problem first, then you go to the problems like around it, right, start at the center.
Azhelle 27:10
Oh, that's so good. I hate to say goodbye to you. Farnaz, you gave so much value today. But first, before we leave, do you have any new projects coming up that you'd like to share with us? Because I know you do.
Farnaz 27:25
So I am I just finished up some development with Disney so that when it's done now, my book Little Leo came out in September. So thank you that was based on conversations that my son and I were having when he was struggling in school. So it's about kind of failure is just practice on our way to getting better, right? And we need to fail in order to succeed. And actually, that also goes back to when Shimmer and Shine first got picked up. I remembered the owner of our overseas studio. He said to me, he's like Farnaz, Don't you wish you would have just gotten it right, like 30 pitches ago, and I looked at and I just went No. And he like looked at me in shock. And he's like, What do you mean, I was like, No, I needed to fail in order to be here because every time I got it wrong, I figured out what to adjust and got a little closer to succeeding I needed all of those failures. But yeah, so that's kind of what Little Leo is about to and then on top of that I have a project in development Girls plus 6 to 11 project with speedmaster I have some stuff in development with Nickelodeon that we're figuring out I just got a book deal for with Simon and Schuster The Salaam Reads division for a new story idea loosely based on my life as a child and Federation Iranian American and then I'm helping on consulting on I want to say four different properties right now potential five people who have books who are trying to adapt them over into series so helping kind of consultant develop those and put pitch decks together so that we could go pitch. So yeah, that's a little bit of
Azhelle 29:20
Just a little bit of stuff going on not too much.
Farnaz 29:23
Yeah. And football team, you know, for my son.
Azhelle 29:28
Well, Farnaz I want to put all the links to your, your LinkedIn, and to your Instagram. Maybe we will connect with you there and follow some of the things you're doing. I'm so happy to have met you.
Farnaz 29:42
Was so good to meet you.
Azhelle 29:44
Was so great to meet you. And you've inspired me and I know that this episode is going to inspire my listeners. Thank you so much for listening into this episode today toy people. I hope you enjoyed getting to know Farnaz and a little bit about her journey, becoming The creator of such a huge show, like Shimmer and Shine. But my absolute favorite part of this conversation had to be learning how to apply IP to a toy line how to make an IP, more toyetic and the thought process that foreigners put herself through so that she could figure out the best way to develop a show that would lend itself well to toy applications without ruining the experience for the child. That is my most favorite takeaway, but I would love to hear what yours was from today's show. So what I want you to do is head over to Instagram. I want you to search for the toy coach and shoot me a message Tell me what was your biggest takeaway from today's episode. What you really enjoyed learning the most or what inspired you today? If you love this podcast and you haven't already left me a review, what are you waiting for? I absolutely love seeing the reviews come through on my phone. Much like the latest one I got from bb23Cal via Apple podcast that says engaging, educational, informative and fun. Well done. Thank you so much for that wonderful review. If you leave me a review on this podcast, I might read yours next. As always, thank you so much for being here with me today toy people I know there are a ton of podcasts out there. So it means the world to me that you tune into this one. Until next week. I'll see you later toy people.
Intro/Outro + Jingle 31:37
Thanks for listening to Making It in The Toy Industry podcast with Azhelle Wade, head over to thetoycoach.com for more information, tips and advice
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