Episode #105: Minda Harts on Retaining and Nurturing Diverse Talent in 2022
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With the Great Resignation of 2021 companies struggled to retain talent. And some companies more specifically recognized their inability to retain diverse talent. Noting that diversity is a major factor to innovation, many companies are in search of a way to attract and retain diverse talent on their teams. But how can they make that happen? If you are a company seeking to retain diverse talent, or you are a person of color struggling to grow at your current employer, this episode is one you can not miss. The guest on today’s podcast, Minda Harts, shares her personal experiences with racial microaggressions in the workplace and how they pushed her to the point of feeling like there wasn’t a place for her at work.
This adversity led her to become a thought leader in diversity and become a workplace and equity consultant. Minda explains the important difference between equity and equality, how mentorship adds value for both the mentor and the mentee, and how companies can create a more supportive environment for people of color. If you are ready to increase your awareness and understanding of issues that prevent equitable work environments, listen to this episode. You’ll walk away with actionable steps on what you can do to improve your allyship to people of color, or if you are a person of color, you’ll gain advice on how to deal with uncomfortable workplace situations.
Watch the video of the full interview below.
EPISODE CLIFF NOTES
Learn how microaggressions at work lead to long term trauma for people of color [00:10:17]
Learn why nearly 50% of people of color said they felt more at home within their companies during the pandemic [00:12:28]
Find out how to be your own advocate in the workplace [00:16:09]
Learn what allies can do to keep “the room” more diverse [00:17:03]
Find out the important differences between equity and equality [00:17:57]
Learn why some women of color feel guilty when they achieve success [00:20:12]
Find out how mentorship can bring coworkers of color opportunity [00:22:40]
Learn what companies that want to be more diverse really have to do to support a diverse workforce [00:30:35]
Find out how to support diversity at your workplace even when working from home [00:44:35]
Learn about HR’s role in dealing with diversity, equity, and inclusion issues [00:47:01]
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This episode is brought to you by www.thetoycoach.com
Learn more about Minda Harts by visiting her website here.
Book Right Within by Minda Harts, purchase by clicking here or Amazon link here.
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EP 105 Minda - EDITED
[00:00:00] Azhelle Wade: You are listening to making it in the toy industry episode number 105.
[00:00:04] Well, Hey there toy people Azhelle Wade here and welcome back to another episode of the toy coach podcast, making it in the toy industry. This is a weekly podcast brought to you by thetoycoach.com. On December 7th, 2021 I hosted a fireside chat with Minda Harts for my friends over at women in toys. The goal of the conversation was to answer this question, how can we attract and retain diverse talent in our industry and how can women of color advance in their careers with confidence and authenticity? Now I know on this podcast, I focus highly on inventors and entrepreneurs, and sometimes we dive in with some corporate toy industry advice. Well, my friends that is a big part of today's episode.
[00:01:10] Lucky for you, the leaders at WIT and Minda Harts, herself approved that conversation that I hosted to be shared on this podcast platform. So get ready to join me and Minda for a revealing and transformative fireside chat. Whether you are a toy company looking to retain and attract diverse talent this conversation is also for you. If you're a woman of color and you just want to show up with confidence and enthusiasm at the workplace and still feel free to be yourself. But this talk is also for you if you are none of those things, but you want to show up as a better ally with more understanding and empathy for your coworkers who might be women of color.
[00:02:01] Now, this conversation will provide companies with actionable steps that they can create to create a culture of belonging and equip women with tangible advice that they can use to advance their careers. Now we do all of this through personal stories and real world examples of what it's like to navigate mentorship, career advancement, and all of the things that come along with a workplace environment. And we're going to talk about topics that you may have not been comfortable discussing, but let's be real. Now trust me, when I say you're going to love this talk, you're going to feel empowered no matter who you are. All right. Enough of selling you on the conversation. Let's dive right into my conversation with Minda Harts.
[00:02:45] Shannon Varcoe: Welcome everybody. If you haven't met me before my name is Shannon Varcoe. I'm the program manager for women in toys, licensing and entertainment. We are so excited for today's conversation around inclusivity and women in the workplace. A fireside chat with Minda Harts moderated by Azhelle Wade. And so for those who have not met Azhelle, she has been having way too much fun in the toy industry over the past 10 years she's worked for companies like toys R us, party city, Madame alexander, just to name a few.
[00:03:15] She's climbed up and across the ladder and the toy world starting out as a designer later gaining three toy patents and eventually becoming a VP at a toy company. And today Azhelle is known industry-wide as the toy coach, her online course, the toy creators academy and powers newbies in the toy industry with step-by-step guidance downloadable worksheets and group coaching. And she's been a mentor with WIT and it's just a WIT super fan and we love her too. We're big fans of Azhelle and we are so excited to have her join us today to moderate this conversation with Minda. And I'll let her take it away from here. Thanks so much for being here Azhelle, we appreciate you.
[00:03:53] Azhelle Wade: Thanks for the intro shannon. I'm happy to be here. Today we have a guest Minda Harts. Minda Harts is a workplace and equity consultant and the author of the memo and the book right within. Now, Minda is a professor at NYU Wagner and hosts a live weekly podcast called secure the seat. She is an Aspen ideas festival scholar, and has been featured on MSNBC's morning with Joe Best company, the New York times, times magazine and Minda frequently speaks at companies like Microsoft, Amazon, Nike, and Bloomberg.
[00:04:27] And today we are so lucky to have her here with us speaking to the WIT community. So today I want to recap what we're going to learn. We are going to learn through personal stories and real-world examples on navigating mentorship, career advancement and workplace environment as women of color. We're going to touch on topics that you may not have been comfortable discussing, but if we want to retain diverse talent, and if we women of color want to advance in the workplace, we've got to explore this. Okay. Welcome Minda, thank you so much for joining us here today.
[00:05:02] Minda Harts: Happy to be here with you. Thank you so so much.
[00:05:05] Azhelle Wade: All right, let's get into it. I haven't been reading your book, so I'm excited to find out more about you. So please share your origin story.
[00:05:13] Minda Harts: Yes. Thank you so much. Again, I'm honored to be in conversation with you honored that we invited me into the sacred space to have such an important conversation on a Tuesday. I think origin stories are really important because for many of us, it's, you know, where we take up maybe a turn in life or we redefine what was once a reality for us and so for me. I spent my first career 15 years, a bit as a fundraising consultant, and I was often the only person of color, the only woman of color, and sometimes the only woman in the room, but most of the time, the only woman of color, and I started to settle into the microaggressions.
[00:05:53] I started to settle in to the bias. I started to tell myself that this is just the way that it is for black women in the workplace. And what I mean by that is, you know, one of my very first managers, he saw that I had burnt orange fingernail polish on. And he said, you people love your bright colors. And he joked around for 15 minutes about how black people like bright colors. And this is my manager right. So those power dynamics are hard to buck up against. And so I just settled into that and I would go on to work for him for many years. And those sorts of things would be said to me several times a day. And so I just normalized it. And I didn't think that there was any other way to experience the workplace because that was my first corporate job.
[00:06:33] And so I did the best that I could, but it was around the time of Trayvon Martin and I was working in my office and I saw out on the street, there was a, a protest of black lives matter protest happening. And I thought it was so interesting because I thought, what would it look like if black lives mattered inside the workplace? So we know that they should matter out in the streets. Right. But what would it look like if equity mattered on the inside, on the about us pages for pay equity for leadership what would that look like? And I started to interrogate and investigate that, but I really didn't know what that meant for me.
[00:07:11] And it wasn't several years later until I decided that I can be part of that solution. I was waiting on somebody else to save me right. To make the workplace better than I found it. And I realized that I had the ability to often talk about courage. That one definition of courage is the ability to do something that frightens me one. And if I lean into my courage, have the capacity to make it better for myself and for others. And so that's exactly what I did. I realized that I had that capacity to, to change the narrative, that narrative and save myself and throw somebody else a life jacket as well. And that's where the books come into play.
[00:07:49] Azhelle Wade: But, you know, as a black woman, I understand some of the stories you shared. I've experienced some of those things, but I cannot imagine how you found the confidence and clarity to just be a thought leader in a space that is just, it requires such vulnerability. And it depends, it's a risky move. So like, where did you find that confidence? Who are you looking up to?
[00:08:11] Minda Harts: Yeah. It's interesting because I didn't have that competence for a very long time because I was looking for somebody else to be kind of my Superman or superwoman or something and come and like fix things and tell my managers and colleagues be better humans. But I realized that, you know, as women, we all have a voice, we just have to decide how we want to use it. And I used to tell myself Azhelle that I did not have a voice. But we all have a voice again, you just have to decide how we want to use it. And it was a very difficult time period in my career. This was after the Trayvon Martin.
[00:08:43] I had worked at one company for 10 years and then I went to a new one and they said all the right things. They said, diversity is important, equity's important. Right. And I thought, well, this is a different kind of conversation. That sounds good to me. Right. This must be a better environment and it ended up being worse than the one I left. And it was in that those moments where I had to show up for myself, self-advocacy, in my opinion is a form of self love. We can show up for ourselves. And again, when certain things were happening, I was waiting on my colleagues to say that was wrong or that was sexist or that was racist or whatever is I might've been experiencing, but I realized that I didn't need anybody else in that room to affirm me.
[00:09:26] I could affirm myself. My story matters, how I'm experiencing this workplace matters. And what I realized is two things can be true at the same time. Others might not be experiencing what I'm experiencing, but I'm experiencing this every day. Right? And so we need to figure out how to make actionable and equitable solutions for those who might be experiencing discrimination and to make a very long story short it's in the books. But it was pivotal for me where that courage came in. It had gotten so bad in one environment that it started to impact my mental health. I started to have anxiety attacks, panic attacks in meetings.
[00:10:02] I started to watch myself deteriorating before my eyes, and it had got so bad that I ended up having to have a conversation with one of the most senior women at the company. And at that point in time, I was pretty fragile, the environment had gotten so toxic that I had to go and have this conversation. And so had the conversation with her saying, Hey, I can't work like this. You know, it's just too much. And she acknowledged that these racial discrimination situations were happening, but she told me there was nothing she could do about it. And that I need to decide if this was a place I wanted to work or not.
[00:10:36] And I remember playing a loop in my head, don't cry, don't cry because I'm like, how can she just not have any empathy in this moment? It's it was after that moment that I went to my car and I cried in my car. Maybe many of you have experienced some type of trauma in the workplace and you go to the bathroom, you go to your office, whatever the case may be. And I just cried in my car, I'm just like, God, you know, I've done everything that they said to do, right? Like go to college, work really hard, keep your head down, do all these things. And I just thought maybe it had, I been a different color. My career might've mattered more to the people inside.
[00:11:13] And I sat with that and I not only cried for myself, I cried for my great-grandmother, who experienced racism in her field. I cried for my grandmother who experienced it too. I cried for my mother and I cried for myself because I'm like, at what point is this going to stop? And it was in that car ride. I turned on the radio. Whitney Houston's where do broken hearts go, comes on the radio. I think, wow, God, you have such a funny sense of humor. And I said to myself, where do the broken hearts go women of color when we can't take it anymore? And it was in that car that I decided that I was going to figure out how to make the workplace better for women that looked like me.
[00:11:51] Azhelle Wade: Yeah, I remember reading all this, I know who you're talking about. I know where we're at your book. And I have to say, as I was reading, like at the end of every chapter, Minda has these prompts that kind of checks in with the reader, like where are you at right now, emotionally and some of your prompts and then some of your stories triggered memories that I had just bury. Right. And I was like, oh my gosh, I didn't even realize until this moment how those little mini traumas were again, like showing up in the workplace for me, time and time again.
[00:12:22] So I want to talk a little bit about that trauma, because what is happening right now in corporate America is, you know, because of the great, like resignation of like 2020, 2021, right. A lot of people are leaving the workplace and it's becoming harder for companies to retain diverse talent. Right. I think you probably think that part of that reason is due to racial trauma. We know it's holding women back from advancing. We know that it's affecting their mental health, but can you just explain what that is for people here that might not know what racial trauma is.
[00:12:53] Minda Harts: Yeah. It is a lot to unpack. And I think for many of us who feel like we're on the margins, you're one of the only, or one of the few, you don't even realize that you've been exposed to so much trauma, right? Like for example, when you go to a doctor, the doctor might ask, well, where is your pain point? And you know, they'll tend to say, oh, a 10 is excruciating one. You know, you kind of stubbed your toe, but you'd still get your work done. It hurts, but it's bearable. And you realize when you're in very toxic work environment You may experience a three every day or you might experience a five every day, but eventually you do that for enough years.
[00:13:29] It feels like 10 all the time. And think about how much you have put on you. Dr. King said that racism distorts the personality. If you are exposed to all of these lights each and every day at work, maybe several times a day, if you had a manager like me, it was several times a day that he was saying something inappropriate and you don't realize you're like, oh, okay he doesn't mean any harm. We often tell ourselves that so that we can get through the day, but again, things can be true at the same time that person might not have intended to harm you. But the impact is that. Right. And I didn't realize how that harm had impacted how I saw myself. They say, bring your authentic self to work. After a while I didn't know who that was.
[00:14:10] Azhelle Wade: Like reading I was, oh, do I even know who I am? Is this how you got me to feel? I've got to say what I realized reading through your book there were moments, like I've had employers that, where I've had a lot of racial issues and then I've had some where I've felt like I've had none, but some racial traumas are very direct, like with your story about the color of your nail Polish, but some are more salary and positioning, right? Some are preventing you from advancing in your career. And even though those might not be as obvious, I'm noticing for myself, they do still start to affect you in that. You're thinking, why is it that, you know, I thought I was a really hard worker. I thought I would be at this level, but I must not be good enough. And then that is what starts permeating in your head. You just start thinking like, I'm not good enough. I don't deserve to be here. And you don't even realize it's stemming from a racial trauma. You don't even realize it. Okay. Alright.
[00:15:05] Minda Harts: You know there was a report that came out a couple of months ago, it was a workplace study. And this organization that put it out, they did a survey of black employees and they asked, when was the first time you felt like you belonged at your company. And over 50% said that they felt like they belonged at their company for the first time working from home during the pandemic, because they weren't exposed to as much toxicity, much racialized aggression, the microaggressions, the macro aggressions that they finally felt like they could just do their work and not be concerned about what Bob or Kim said or didn't say or meant. And you think about that, like, geez, that's the first time. And you know, that broke my heart, but I think it's important for us to understand that many of us are not, we might be working at the same place and experience it very differently.
[00:15:51] Azhelle Wade: Yes. Okay. Let's keep going to career advancement. So there's two sides, today we want to talk about companies who struggle creating a diverse culture belonging. We want to talk about women of color, who might be struggling with guilt self-worth or just frustration trying to advance in the corporate world. So going back to your experiences, what are coping, actually, this is, I want to make this a two-parter what are coping mechanisms that you used early on when you first started becoming a leader in this space? And then what coping mechanisms do you really turn to now?
[00:16:24] Minda Harts: Yeah, those are good questions. I think the first part of it is for affirming ourselves, right. Again, I think oftentimes we think that we don't have anything to add, because again, we've been in very like in situations where we're always feeling less than crazy. So you have to obviously move from what I call it, enemy state of mind to an empire state of mind. Like I can make it anywhere. Right. But if you're in these situations or you're working at these companies where they're saying that diversity equity inclusion is important, women in the workplace is important, but you never see that demonstrated that does something to you. Right. You know, oftentimes people have heard it's hard to be what you can't see.
[00:17:02] And obviously many of us have been what we can't see, but it's better when you do have a role model, right? Like someone who looks like you are identifies the way you do, because the reality is I never had a manager that looked like me. Right? So oftentimes my manager would be promoting other people who reminded them of their younger selves or their daughters. I didn't have that benefit or that luxury or that privilege. Right. So I had to work 10 times harder to be seen in these environments. And that takes a toll on you. And I think it's important that we have these conversations out loud, because let's be honest, about two years ago, we weren't having these type of conversations out loud. Right.
[00:17:38] We were having them black and brown women. We were having in our group chats and at brunch and things like that. But we weren't able to talk about them out loud. Think about that. Like I was in my career for 15 years and if I ever said something was racist, I was the villain. Right. So I never did. And so then I always questioned myself. Well, maybe it wasn't that. And if you're crying, knowing that if you're being mistreated, you know, dignity, equity, respect should be table stakes and we should be creating cultures in which everybody feels that. And when that's not there, then psychological safety is not present either.
[00:18:19] Azhelle Wade: Okay. If a woman of color finds herself in a toxic working environment that could be created by a bunch of things, salary and equity, just negative experiences with boss. How can they prioritize their healing, but then still keep advancing their career. Maybe they can't leave that company, or maybe they don't really want to, maybe it's a dream company, but a toxic situation. So how can they maintain that health, but still advance in the workplace.
[00:18:46] Minda Harts: I think culturally sometimes just as women, we do work and then we hope somebody notices right. That come and tap us on the back and be like, Hey girl, it's your turn. It's your time. And what we know is that that's not the way it works. I know for me early in my career, I was working really hard with my head down, wondering why isn't anybody noticing this? And I realized that I had to be my best advocate. I had to articulate my value, quantify my worth. And I had to build relationships, build squad so that people that are in the rooms that I'm not in can be speaking my name. Right. So I would look at my colleagues, I'm like, they're not working nearly as hard as me. And I realized that I needed to build those relationships. And so I would say, the community here at WIT is, you know, as women, we all experienced inequality. That's a fact, but there are some women that experience less inequality than other women. And so how can we show up for each other?
[00:19:40] That means we read about each other's experiences. We learn about it so that we can speak each other's names in the rooms that we're not in. And so let's look at this as like, okay, let's all be courageous because I think if we lean into our courage, then we get to create a workplace that is better for everybody. And I think at the end of the day, don't we want everybody to be able to do their best work, but you know, black and brown women can't do that on their own. We need sponsors, we need allies. So if you're in a room that doesn't have anyone that looks different than you or identifies differently than you, then the first step is make sure that you are solving and bringing people into that room so that you're solving for all people. And that's what equity is. It's not enough to have equality without the equity. And so I hope that people will think more about we can no longer opt in to equity. We have to make it mandatory.
[00:20:29] Azhelle Wade: Wait, separate and divide that. What does equality versus equity?
[00:20:33] Minda Harts: So I often hear people say, oh, well, you know, equality is important and yes, we know that to be true. Right. We can all drink out of the same water fountain and go to the bathrooms, most places that, you know, so yes, equality is there it's people fought very hard so we could have those things, right. But equity is very different. Equity means that we all have a piece of the puzzle. We all have a voice. We all are represented in some way, shape or form. So when you think about like an about us page, for example, at a company, if their taglines are we care about diversity, we care about equity, but there's no one that looks different. It's the same prototype. Then equity is not there, right? Like I could be the only black woman in a room at the table and equity that would say it's equality. Right? I'm in the room great. But equity would be my voice is heard. My ideas are valued, right? I don't have to just be grateful to be in the room that I actually have.
[00:21:31] Azhelle Wade: There is something about that. I felt that too in my career where I just felt I'm in the room, I should just shut up. I should just be happy I'm in the room and just be quiet. But yeah, equity is just that, just having the right to be there as much as everyone else and to have your great moments be appreciated and you know, everyone has their down based are slack moments and you shouldn't be penalized so hard for it. Okay. I want to move into talking about guilt real quick, and then we're going to go into navigating mentorship and all that. And this, honestly, this is a question I threw in because I feel I wanted to hear your opinion. So as a woman of color, when I left my last employer, which I loved, I was like, I want to do my own thing.
[00:22:10] I'm going to be the toy coach. I want to do this thing. I left behind a team, a diverse team that I had built. And I also left behind an incredible title. I felt so much guilt because I felt like I had worked so hard to achieve something that like my grandmother would be so proud of. My mom was so proud of. And then I had brought on this team and made that, gave them opportunity and then I was building something and then I walked away from it for myself to go to the next level for myself and that guilt little bit me for a long time. So like, how would you recommend women of color deal with the guilt of rising, you know, of actually doing well?
[00:22:49] Minda Harts: Yeah. I mean that guilt is real. I think when we talk about trauma in the workplace, a lot of times, many of us are holding on to shame, guilt, whatever have you, that we've been strong for everybody else, but ourselves, right? We've put everybody above ourselves as women that's who many of us have been conditioned to be. Right. And is that a caretaker of some sorts? And what I think is important is saying, what would it look like if we center ourselves, that's not being selfish, that's being selfless. That means that we've gotten to a point in our career where we're happy. We feel good about it.
[00:23:23] Your grandmother, your mother, everybody's proud of you, but now this is the next step, right? And I think we have to give ourselves permission to explore, to dream bigger than ourselves. Right. And I think I felt that same guilt when I left corporate America. You know, had the good health insurance, you know, made it good salary. I was hoping certain, you know, people in my family, so I felt like, oh, you know, there's so much pressure here. And I was the first person in my family to graduate from college. And so, you have that feeling of so many people are counting on me. Is this failure if I leave and try doing something else.
[00:23:53] And what I realized was we have the ability to redefine what success means to us. Right. And that's the beauty of the great resignation or the pandemic is that we, as women, I think, were thinking about what life could be for us, right? What's, what's out there for us. Can we have more, what does flexibility look like and asking for that? And I love that. And as more women are doing it, we're normalizing it, right? Because if not enough of us are talking about these things, then it doesn't seem normal, but let's normalize it so that we, as women, we can have various career paths and success doesn't have to be a one size that fits all.
[00:24:31] Azhelle Wade: Yes. Okay. Let's move on into mentorship, which is a huge promote proponent of mentorship. I do have to say they launch the Ruth handler mentorship program with Mattel in 2020. And I met a mentor there who helped me exit my last job in a way that would set them up for success. And I told her, I was like, this is what I'm thinking of doing. I don't know what to do. I feel guilty. And it was a white woman, but she gave me incredible advice. And it was so accurate that one of my people when I left, they said, you know, I noticed that you were doing X, Y, Z. I had a feeling like you were setting us up so well, I had a feeling. So I want to ask you how have mentors played a role in your career?
[00:25:16] Minda Harts: I'm glad that you had that, right? Because I also think that mentors and sponsors that's a privilege. Not everybody gets that. Right. You know, it shouldn't be something that people have access to in a workplace, but we don't always get it. And I think it goes back to our earlier conversation. And sometimes as mentors, we choose people who remind us of ourselves. Right. And sometimes if you are a woman of color, LGBTQ or however, you might identify a mother over 60, you know, sometimes you may not be the obvious choice for folks, right? Because we haven't extended again, the definition of equity, right. Is everybody gets a shot at this. But I would say for me, I'm so grateful for the mentors that I had. One in particular. His name is Chuck. He was in the rooms that I wasn't in. And, you know, 30 plus years older than me.
[00:26:02] We were more honored than the odd couple, but we actually had more common than we would think, but it took relationship building. And I would encourage people to build relationships with people across age, race, identity. Various intersections because we can all, we all have a sphere of influence, but you know, one thing that Chuck did for me is he was the second, most senior person at one company that I was working at. And he was in a room full of people that looked like him, right. And we started building this relationship and because we started building a relationship, he became a mentor and then one day he was in one of his all staff meetings. And I love telling the story because the power of speaking, someone else's name in the room could totally change their trajectory.
[00:26:42] And I didn't know this, I didn't ask him to be my sponsor. Right. And so he's in the room. There was a conversation about a big client deal that was happening in the bay area. And the CEO had gotten sick and she wasn't able to go on this trip and her senior staff, everybody else had business trips. So nobody could be there. And he in that room said, you know, who could take this on Minda and everybody in that room because they didn't have a relationship with me. They're like, she's too junior, she can't do it. And he's like, no, I think she can, she just needs the opportunity. And they're like, no, no, no. And he's like, listen, if it doesn't work out, I'll take the hit for it.
[00:27:15] I was already in san Francisco, I get this call. I'm doing my job. I get this call. And he's like, Hey kid, I got this opportunity on you. And I took it. I took it like Hamilton. I didn't give away my shot. Nailed it. And then a few months later I got promoted and I was in that room with him. It didn't take his takeaway. Okay. It added value. And I think that's how we have to look at it. It doesn't have to be a zero sum game. We're not trying to take chairs away from people. This is not musical chairs. This is adding to the table.
[00:27:48] Azhelle Wade: How did you make that mentorship connection?
[00:27:51] Minda Harts: Yeah. Well, Chuck became a sponsor at that point. I'm very, very thankful completely, but you know what, here's what it was. I was working hard with my head down, right? Like. Thinking, you know, Chuck has never coming to my cube to ask me how I'm doing or what's going on, but we worked on the same floor. So I thought there were times where I'd see him in the elevator, I'd see him on the floor and say, hi, how you doing? Very casual, small talk. And I'd be like, great. And I just keep looking at the elevator doors, like, you know, not saying anything. And then I realized Minda, these are missed opportunities to build relationships, right? And this most senior person on your floor, he's talking to you build on that. Right. And I just took time. Every time I saw him, I would no longer be like, oh good. I would say, oh great. I'm working on some cool stuff. And I build on those relationships. And then over time we had some coffees, we talked about career advancement. And when that opportunity presented, he remembered all those exchanges, that put my name in that room.
[00:28:46] Azhelle Wade: Lovely. So mentorship is a long game.
[00:28:48] Minda Harts: But it can change somebody's trajectory overnight. Right? And so we all have the capacity each and every one of us, you don't have to be the most senior person. We can all as women speak another woman's name in the room. You don't have to be the most senior person. We all can do that for each other. And, and I hope we create a culture of doing that as women, because again, we can expand the table. We don't have to shrink it.
[00:29:10] Azhelle Wade: Did you struggle with trusting Chuck at all? Like having the dynamic, him being so senior and a different race and having racial trauma issues, like, did you struggle with trust.
[00:29:21] Minda Harts: That's a great question. Yeah, I did, because at first I'm like, is he only doing this because I'm the only black person, you know, I was in my head and because of the trauma I had experienced, I could not let that get in my way. And that's where I realized that healing was starting to take place because I couldn't treat Chuck like everybody else who had treated me bad inside the workplace. I had to build my relationship and make a clean slate for him. And I'm so glad I did, because I think as women, sometimes we have been hurt in the workplace and we will have to allow new relationships to not dictate the old ones. Right.
[00:29:55] Azhelle Wade: So was there something he did that just reset you or was it you realizing that you were showing up differently and just getting right within and saying you know, I need to show up differently here. It's my job. Was it you or him?
[00:30:08] Minda Harts: It actually was me because he didn't know what trauma I had. I need people on my team who are invested in my success. And so I would only be hurting myself by blocking those opportunities for help. And I think that's part of the healing process, realizing that yes, things have happened, but that's not where my story has to end. It doesn't have to end in the trauma.
[00:30:27] Azhelle Wade: So if there's someone listening today that is thinking would love to mentor someone, maybe a woman of color, is there any right way you think they might need to approach them? Or do you actually put the work on the mentee? If they're a person of color to do that work and trust?
[00:30:43] Minda Harts: I think it's just like any relationship, it should be reciprocal. Right. And so I think that, you know, if you are in dominant culture in your organization or start building relationships with other women that identify differently with you. It doesn't mean that you have to approach them like, Hey girl, I want to be your mentor. It's getting to know them. Right. Just like you would in building relationships.
[00:31:05] And then eventually you'll know how to show up for them. It's just like allyship. Right? I think so many of us call ourselves allies, but what we really should be asking ourselves, when is the last time we demonstrated allyship? That's a different question. Right. And I think it's the same for mentorship. How is my privilege benefiting somebody else? And I think we all have the ability to really sit with ourselves and think, how can I really be an ally in action or a mentor in action, or a sponsor in action?
[00:31:32] Azhelle Wade: And that leads perfectly into our next section. Let's talk about impacting change at work. So, so many companies have shared recently in the past few years, their commitment to creating a culture of belonging. They have the right intentions, but why do you think that sometimes those good intentions don't always filter down to the day-to-day actions of their employees?
[00:31:54] Minda Harts: Yeah, that's a great question. I do think that it's important that each of us realize, again, we can not opt in to equity. It has to be mandatory. And I think again, a lot of good intentions. Good intentions don't solve anything. You know the lady Maya Angelou said, Hey, it's not solved one thing yet. Right? So if we have toxicity in the workplace, just because we say that black lives matter or diversity and inclusion is important, or that we value women in the workplace again, where is the demonstration? So there's so many women of color that are still sitting at companies who said racial justice is important, but there's been no change. The about us pages look the same. The management team looks the same.
[00:32:32] And if I'm sitting there, then I no longer believe you. And the trust is starting to erode. And so for me, I feel like we really have to get back to the basics, which is rebuilding trust, which is restorative justice. Right. You know, if we haven't done what we said, we were doing as leaders going back to our teams and saying, We have not done exactly what we had committed to doing in the last year, but we're committed to that. And if at any point you see that we're falling short, we encourage you to come to us and have these conversations. Let's normalize having courageous conversations. People have to feel comfortable. They have to feel safe to be able to say, well, you made the statement last year and I haven't seen anything happen, can we talk about that?
[00:33:12] And without somebody being demonized or being negative, and I think again, we have to normalize having these conversations because it takes a lot of courage for somebody to come and say that equity is still not present here. And then if someone on your team, let's say a manager, right? I've heard I do a lot of consulting. I'll have a lot of leaders say, you know, We've talked about it enough. I'm not comfortable talking about race and it's like, wait a second. Then maybe you shouldn't be managing diverse teams if you're not comfortable talking about race, transgender issues, motherhood. I think it's really important that we have the right leaders and managers in place to take us into the future of work. And I think that's where I think some changes have to happen.
[00:33:52] And if people are being courageous than we need others to be courageous listeners, if people come to you and say, this is not what I thought it was, or I have some ideas, don't take it personal. For example my manager who had the burnt orange fingernail Polish comments. If I felt safe enough to be able to come to him and say, Hey chap, I know you might not have intended harm, but here's how it landed on me. I just wanted to make you aware of that, right. That would have done so much for me as a young woman in the workplace to just be able to have that conversation. But oftentimes people you'll be met with no, that's not what I meant. You took it the wrong way and they dismissed the things. Right. And so I think we have to have courage on both sides.
[00:34:33] Azhelle Wade: Yeah, it's all well said. And you touched on points I was literally about to pull up in your book that I remember reading, but you mentioned two things that really stand out to me and attached to what you just said, restoration agreements and being an equity advocate as tools to build that trust or to rebuild that trust. Do you mind just touching on those a little bit?
[00:34:55] Minda Harts: When I think about the safety of the workplace, I think it's important to understand where are we on our teams, right. We may not be able to solve and create equity in the whole organization, but what letter would we be giving our teams currently for equity, that's important. So for me, when I think about the most harm that was caused to me in the workplace, it was in team meetings. I was in one team meeting and I got called the black girl. What's the black girl thinking.
[00:35:19] Azhelle Wade: You are kidding.
[00:35:19] Minda Harts: You know my name, I'm the only one here that lives things like that. I would have that and that was in the 1960s. I'm fairly young. That was happening not too long ago. Right. When those things would happen, it would have been nice had my manager stepped in and created a safe environment. But if not that, then having an equity advocate that I talk about in the book, having someone be able to monitor the tones of meetings, to make sure that these things are not being said. So if you don't have people who feel comfortable stepping up in those moment, we have somebody already in there that says, you know, this has not been helpful for the team meetings. And so I think it's important as managers to remove the barriers for our employees, not create more. We all know who those bad toxic behaviors are on our team. Why do we still allow them to cause harm on the team? So let's normalize those people, not feeling emboldened, to be able to say whatever they want to say, oh, that's just crispy and Chris.
[00:36:17] Well, crispy and Chris is causing problems, right? So we need to have, we need to have a conversation with Chris, right? Because you know what happens if Chris feels emboldened to continue to say and do those toxic traits, we should count out those behaviors, the woman of color, or the women on the team, they're going to end up leaving. And then, you know what happens? The Chris's get them to stay and create habits where all your talent is leaving. Let's normalize they leave and the good talent gets to stay. And so again, when we're thinking about equity, it's not just saying something in a meeting or calling someone out it's like you said, it's pay equity, it's language, it's what was being said in emails, it's calling someone by their preferred pronouns. All of that is part of it.
[00:36:59] Azhelle Wade: Yeah, that's such a good point. You were making me reflect on times. Feel like for people that might be listening and if you still have a thought in your mind where like, oh, I mean, they should get over it. I deal with stuff all the time. I deal with people teasing me and picking at me. I mean, just to just try to help you understand. It's like, imagine you're trying to do your job every day and let's say, okay, let's break this down to like a relationship thing. Like say you're trying to do your job everyday. And you just keep getting horrible news. Like maybe your partner wants a divorce or like news that emotionally breaks you. That is the experience of like having this trauma show up at work. So whether it's someone saying that you like bright colors because you're black.
[00:37:45] Or for me, I had people say like Azhelle, you know, you're so negative. And I'm like, I feel like that's coming from somewhere else because that is clearly not who I am. I feel like that's a free judgment you have on black women, you know? And those things start to shape how you show up. You start to want to be small, right? You don't even want to be seen you go to work every day. And you're just like, you know, maybe if I stay quiet, I can have peace. I can get my job done because if you talk up how can you possibly find the energy to bring your best self? Okay. So we all know that having a diverse workforce positively impacts our industry because we have, especially the creative toy space. We're seeing now like more and more black dolls and Asian dolls and things like that that are inspired by bringing cultures together and welcoming them onto the shelves. Do you have anything you think corporations could be doing better about creating or retaining their diverse workforce?
[00:38:45] Minda Harts: Well said, I think it goes back to the demonstration. Here we've done a lot of talking about racial justice. We've talked a lot about those things, but now it's time to demonstrate how it's here. Right? Where is the safety? Where's it here? For example, a lot of companies are saying, okay, everybody come on back to the workplace on some arbitrary date. Right. But if you think about the statistic I gave earlier about over 50% of black employees felt like they belong. Would you say that if you knew that half of your employees that might be people of color have not felt safe prior to the pandemic, would you say, okay, what do we need to do now to make sure that when people do return to the office, psychological safety is here, right?
[00:39:27] And I think as leaders, we have to think about that. Again, we may experience the workplace one way, but think about how others that identify differently or show up differently than we do, how they experienced workplace. That's why it's important that we have all voices around the table because you can't solve for things that you've never experienced. You're just not going to do that. There's a show that I'm watching right now. Love the show, it's called Harlem on Amazon. And you can tell that maybe some of the writers had never really lived in Harlem. Women empowerment type of shows, but it goes back to the corporations, right. Let's solve for things that we haven't actually talked to the people who would benefit or harm. And I think that's where it goes back to the relationship building we like to solve for things, but whose voice is missing. And I think that's how you retain people, right? We're all gonna make mistakes, one thing I include in my book is called the managers pledge.
[00:40:17] We're going to all make mistakes because we're human, but it's how we recover from the mistake. Right? Can we commit to equity each and every day? And that's important and we all can do that because I think what happens in the workplace, we'll say, well, I'm not like Chad, but what are you doing? Let's put the mirror up to our own face. How can each and every one of us commit to equitable practices in our emails, in our language, in who we're interviewing. Who gets advanced. And I think, as we're thinking about psychological safety, emotional intelligence, we put that in the whole employee journey, then we're solving for equity. And that's like the big thing. It's not enough to just hire 10 black women and say, no, because those 10 black women are not going to say, if the environment is not safe. So we have to create a culture of allyship. We have to create a culture of inclusion and we have to solve with those voices at the table.
[00:41:11] Azhelle Wade: Love it. I feel we have a few questions in, so maybe we can close here with my questions and I will not hug you and we can dive into questions from the audience. How does that sound?
[00:41:23] Minda Harts: That sounds good.
[00:41:24] Azhelle Wade: Okay, great. This was fantastic. Shannon, how are we doing this?
[00:41:27] Shannon Varcoe: We're good. You can go ahead and start with the questions that you've got. And then if anyone has questions for Minda go ahead and drop them in the Q&A box or in the chat. And we will take questions from both spots.
[00:41:38] Azhelle Wade: Okay. I see something in the Q&A box. Let me just read it second form it. Well okay, got it. Anonymous question. Outward facing our leaders will talk about diversity as a PR talking point or marketing angle, but internally they don't want to recognize or address the real issues. It's almost as if they put their head in the sand and try to talk in a way as if the problems don't exist. How can we discuss issues and inequalities with our leadership teams without creating fear in them, or have them just shut down and ignore our concerns?
[00:42:12] Minda Harts: That's a great question. I definitely believe when we having these conversations, it's important to have, you know, grace and empathy and those sorts of things. But at this point in our juncture and in our careers and people, but if people don't already understand what everything we've gone through over the last couple years that seeing people and hearing them out is important, then there's nothing you're ever going to be able to say or do to change these people's minds. I often talk about who. There's two different types of who's, who is there to support invest you. And we can not be concerned about who isn't right. And so if those people are not focused on equity, there's nothing that we can say, we can have a million round tables. We can have them read tens of thousands of books about it.
[00:42:55] But ultimately we have to have people who are willing and ready to make the workplace better than we found it. That takes courage. Right. And I think that if those people are not willing to have those conversations and we have to ask ourselves, is this a place that I can grow? Is this a place that's ever going to see me? And I think as women of color in particular, we're always in spaces where we have to try to convince you that dignity equity is, and respect is important. And I'm at a place in my life where I'm not going to keep convincing you that my humanity matters. If you don't get it by now, then I'm going to figure out where I need to be, where someone can respect. Right. I don't have to survive at work, but I can thrive. And I think those companies who want to have the hard conversations and do the real work and roll up their sleeves that's who will be able to retain those are going to be the companies that thrive.
[00:43:41] And that'll be a place where we'll say, you know what? These are good places for women to work and all those other they're going to have a mass Exodus and we're not going to be fooling around with those companies anymore. So I think it's important to find who are those people who are willing to have these conversations and we want to move the equity needle forward, but don't spend that needed energy on people who don't want to get it at this point. If they're not getting it, there's nothing else to be done about it. And they're actively choosing not to, they don't want to get it.
[00:44:10] Azhelle Wade: Ooh. I want to follow up on that one? What would you say to those people that feel like it's not my place to deal with this?
[00:44:18] Minda Harts: Yeah. Well, I think this is where allyship is important, right? Because I think black and brown people, I feel like we've done everything we can do. You know what I mean?
[00:44:26] Azhelle Wade: I know I'm tired.
[00:44:28] Minda Harts: We need our allies to demonstrate. So for example, What would it look like if after a year a company said that racial justice and gender equity was important and that's not demonstrated in the numbers. What if our white counterparts were to go to leadership and say, Hey, I just want to have a conversation. I noticed that some of the things that were said last year, you know, we still haven't made sure on those promises. Is there anything I can do. That would say something completely different than all the black people, all the brown people, all the indigenous people, because at some point for some, it sounds like complaining. It sounds like nagging, but if our allies show up for us in this way, that's a different conversation.
[00:45:08] And that lens, it doesn't just matter to us. It matters to everybody. And that's what I would like to see more of our white allies showing up in these ways for us, that we don't always have to be the one speaking about it, that others, that it's important for them. And so when we talk about equity, it's, who's going to HR, right? Who's going to management, who's stepping up and I think we need to have a variety of voices showing up for each other in the workplace. Otherwise, we're going to have this conversation this time next year again, and I don't know about you, but I hope we have a different conversation next year.
[00:45:41] Azhelle Wade: I love that answer. First part of your answer, find the people who care and then maybe those people can help be your ally in this situation. I want to sidetrack, I too have been in a situation where I felt was working not as hard as I normally was. Team was noticing it. It was because I was going through a health issue, but I couldn't handle everything that was happening and an ally because there was a lot of racial trauma and ally stepped up and talked to them for me, and then I didn't have to deal with it. And then there was understanding and I'm so grateful that they did that because yeah I wouldn't have been able to handle the situation. It was just too much. Okay. Oh God, the questions are flooding in. All right. How can you work hard without having your head down in a work from home environment, building mentorship, without having that face to face contact?
[00:46:27] Minda Harts: Great question. The workplace says, it's evolving, right? You think about even before the internet, like Y2K, people are like, how are we ever going to get, you know, before emails and fax machines and we've all evolved over time. And I think we're in kind of that, like no fax machine error, right? Where we're now in this like hybrid. And let me tell you, people are still getting promoted in a virtual environment. People are salary increases in a virtual environment. People are making more money than they've ever made in a virtual environment. It's okay. So that should be YouTube. That can be all of us. Right. But we still have to build those relationships. And I feel like now, because we are in hybrid models. More people are willing to checks and whoever they're willing to have those 15 minute virtual coffees, they're willing to have those opportunities with you.
[00:47:12] And so think about if you're on a lot of virtual calls, show up maybe a few minutes early with your camera on, let people see you, right. If there's some, you know, influencers or leadership that needs to see your face, show up with your camera on sometimes so that people can see you. If there's an opportunity for you to, you know, add to the conversation, unmute yourself, use the raise hand function, let people know that you're still in this thing, right? Use the chat. If people are talking about something and you don't have an opportunity to chime into that, use the chat so that people can see your name. Like these are the new ways that we build our social capital. So don't let this building of social capital stop you because we're in a different environment.
[00:47:51] The workplace is always going to evolve and we still want you to be thought of, and we want your name to be spoken in those zoom rooms and those WebEx rooms. Right. So think about who do you need to have that time with? Right? Because I find that more people are willing to have that time now. And again, another place to do that if your company has made certain declarations, this is a great opportunity for you to go back to maybe leadership and say, Hey, one thing that you mentioned last year, I really want to see how I can be helpful to make sure we move this ball forward. You get to create an opportunity for yourself. So, you know, don't think that you can't have your career success because we're in a different environment. You still can do it. And it's just redefining again, what success looks like, but utilize your virtual tools.
[00:48:34] Azhelle Wade: Okay. The next question. I wasn't sure if this quite matches you, but let's say. So to follow up what is the role of HR, if any, in addressing DEI issues and elevating it effectively to the executives? Now, the reason I push this to you Minda is, cause I do believe you mentioned a talk with someone in HR, in your book.
[00:48:52] Minda Harts: What I'm about to say is for all those folks who are in HR, I have a special spot in my heart for you. But what I will say with the caveat is I teach a course at NYU Wagner, it's called talent development. And one section that I talk about is HR and I use this case study or article from Harvard business review. And it's called everybody loves to hate HR because the reality is sometimes when we are experiencing discrimination in the workplace, we may go to HR and nothing happens, or we feel like that's not a safe space for us. And I realized that going forward in the workplace. I do believe this is, no one's paid me to answer it this way. But I think that we have to redefine what the function of HR is going forward.
[00:49:38] If HR is there for only payroll or benefits and things like that, then let that be what it is. But if it's not there to make sure that investigations are taking place, that people have a safe space to go to when certain things are happening and being heard, because it takes a lot of courage to go to HR. If you've gone to HR, you've probably experienced a situation for a long time before you went there. And so if HR is not that space, we need to make sure inside of companies and organizations, that there are spaces for people to be able to air out their grievance, to get help a hotline, something or conflict resolution, mentorship, something there has to be a space. And so I think currently, unfortunately HR has not been that place for many people, especially people of color.
[00:50:23] And so my hope is that, does HR need more resources, so that they can be those things, right? Because I think you're expecting a lot on a small department. And so I do think there needs to be a rebrand of HR. And a pe ndling employee cases, such as that, then there needs to be another department to do that. And so that's kind of where I am with HR. And it's hard. And if you do work in HR, remind yourself of what it was like to make on the other side of the table. This is the only place I can come to and I need that empathy, I need that psychological safety. And I know I hear from so many women of color that HR is the last place they want to go in. And I don't want that to be the trajectory of HR, because I do think a lot of good is housed in HR.
[00:51:05] Azhelle Wade: All right. Great. A new question from slack. If white women are listening and recognizing that they've made mistakes with BiPAP colleagues or employees, what can be done for them to regain trust and rebuild relationships, or at least what are the first steps?
[00:51:21] Minda Harts: Yeah, I think that's a great question. And I do feel like sometimes there's an empathy gap between white women and women of color. And I think, again, it's that good intentions, right? And I think good intentions don't solve any problems. It really takes the demonstration. But I think what we have to do is, McKinsey came in lean and came out with a study and they asked thousands of white women. How many of you feel like your allies to women of color in the workplace? Around 80% of white women said they felt like they were allies to women of color. They asked the same amount of women of color. How many of you feel like white women are allies to you? And 20% said they felt like white women were allies to them in the workplace.
[00:51:58] So clearly there's a disconnect between what allyship really needs. Right. And I think we have to really reconcile that, it's the demonstration. Again, we all can admit that we're probably an ally, but how is our allyship benefiting a woman of color? And so I think we have to think about that, right? It's not always calling somebody out in a meeting, but when it starts with these three things, listening, listening to conversations like this so you're aware, educating yourself, reading books, like the memo reading books, like right within to find out. I didn't realize that my colleague was experiencing this or I manage women of color. I didn't realize that this landed on them in these ways.
[00:52:34] So now I'm a more culturally competent leader because now I'm aware of some of these things and then third activate. So if we're listening, educating, and activating, then we're showing up for everybody, not just women of color, because if we're being good stewards of allyship and everybody benefits from that. Right? And so what I think is important is to remind ourselves that we all have the capacity to show up for each other. And I hope that white women and women of color build stronger relationships so that we can trust each other. Because I think over the last couple of years, there's been some trust that's been eroded. And I think that we need to build better relationships with each other. So that trust is there.
[00:53:13] Azhelle Wade: I want to follow up on that one. Do you think that it might be beneficial to have a first conversation? So you, you realize you've made mistakes as a white woman to have that first conversation saying like, look, I have been doing some work and I realized how I've been showing up in the past was wrong. And I just want you to know that moving forward I'm X, Y, Z, would that be beneficial in your opinion?
[00:53:33] Minda Harts: Absolutely. Put the script out, right? Like white women who were like really horrible to me in my prior work environments. If they were to come to me today and say, you know what Minda, I apologize I failed on you. I'm doing my work now, you know, I apologize. I would feel so good about that. Right. But most importantly, if they never apologize, I just hope that they're willing to do that work. We all can be allies. That's not just for white men and women. We all have that ability to do that. But I do think it takes some introspection to say, okay, maybe I have made some missteps, right? No, I'm not racist. No, I'm not a bad person, but I have done some things that my intentions were not to harm, but they might have been harmful. And so going forward, I'm committed every day to be doing more equitable work and being a better human at the end of the day.
[00:54:20] Azhelle Wade: Yeah. I would love to hear that from someone. Beautiful, yes. Thank you so much for this conversation today. I feel like you've really impacted my life with your book and I'm not even done with it yet, so I can't wait to see what happens when I finished. We were talking offline about what you did for me, so thank you. And I'm sure that the people here today have learned something that they're going to take away. We got scripts. We got action plans. We have we're good. This was a fantastic conversation. Thank you. Thank you so much Minda. Oh, also I do want to call out, which is going to be posting this video up to get the recording. And they've also allowed me to share it on the toy coach podcast. So if you want an audio, if you want a video, you've got it all. Thank you, Minda and take away Shannon.
[00:55:00] Shannon Varcoe: Yes. Thank you so much, Minda. Thank you Azhelle. What an incredible conversation. And I think to everyone who's joined, thank you for being a part of this and asking really wonderful questions. Such an important conversation for all the obvious reasons that you both shared throughout, but really appreciate you joining us today and, you know, bringing this conversation to our industry and to our community here. And we are really committed to making these, these changes and making these conversations happen more and more. And so we appreciate you both for being a part of it today. So thank you, thank you, thank you. And as Azhelle said, we will have this recording available on website and the resource section, and we look forward to seeing it come out as well on the toy coach podcast. So it's wonderful. And thank you again, everyone for being a part of today, have a great rest of your days. Thanks everyone.
[00:55:49] Minda Harts: Thank you.
[00:55:52] Azhelle Wade: Well, there you have it toy people. I hope you found that conversation as informational and inspirational as it felt to me in the moment while we were having it. Now, if you are a visual learner and you want to hear that whole conversation again, with some visual elements, I want you to head over to the women in toys website because they are hosting a replay of the video of this conversation. To close out today's episode I am going to encourage you to get your own copy of the right within. If you are a woman of color, you will feel justified and seen in your stories and experiences.
[00:56:30] But I have a feeling that even if that description doesn't fit you, this book is going to be an eye opener. Now, before we sign off today, you know, I've got to give a listener spotlight and my listener spotlight is going out to all of my toy creators academy students right now. Ah, okay. So I have to say thank you, thank you, thank you to all of you who have submitted to the TCA virtual pitch event. We are prepping for our pitch event, like no other. It's coming in January. So some of you are working really close up until the holidays.
[00:57:08] And I just want to let you know how much I appreciate your dedication to innovation in this industry. If you want to learn more about toy creators academy, or you just want to learn more about me, head over to thetoycoach.com. Everything you need links to toy critters academy or fun quizzes, or just to learn a little bit about me is all there. As always, thank you so much for spending time with me today. I know there are a ton of podcasts out there, so it means the world to me that you tuned into this one. Until next week. I'll see you later toy people.
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