#274: Turn Your Hobby Into a Best-Selling Board Game with Elizabeth Hargrave
What are your hobbies? I personally enjoy dance, specifically latin dance and often I wonder, “What if I could translate salsa dancing into a toy or game?”. Well today, we’re going to explore that possibility. Today my guest shares how she turned her hobby into a best selling board game!
In this episode of Making It in the Toy Industry, I’m joined by Elizabeth Hargrave, award-winning board game designer and co-founder of the Tabletop Game Designers Association. You might know her from her hit game Wingspan, which turned the world of nature and birdwatching into one of the most beloved engine-building games of all time.
Elizabeth shares how she took her passion for the natural world and used it to build a meaningful and immersive game that fully translated the experience of birding. Our conversation today circles around how to accurately translate the “experience” of doing various hobbies to a tabletop play pattern. In my opinion that’s the secret sauce of how Elizabeth created such an incredible game on her first try.
During this episode, we also talk about her upcoming game Sanibel, inspired by collecting seashells on the beach. A hobby so simple and a game so elegant, that I’m sure you’ll find yourself inspired to build a tabletop experience based on your hobbies.
Listen For These Important Moments
[00:01:12] - What started as a love for birdwatching became Wingspan, a wildly successful board game that blends strategy with nature through clever engine-building mechanics.
[00:04:07] - Elizabeth introduces the Tabletop Game Designers Association, which offers support with contracts, advocacy, and education, perfect for both new and seasoned game designers.
[00:10:51] - From butterflies to beachcombing, see how personal passions can evolve into meaningful, immersive game themes that resonate with players.
[00:23:07] - Elizabeth’s Wingspan pitch journey proves you don’t. Learn how smart feedback, persistence, and a strong prototype can open doors for your game invention.
[00:34:49] - Even with success, staying grounded in playtesting and peer feedback is key to creating games that last. No shortcuts, just a solid creative process.
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This episode is brought to you by www.thetoycoach.com
Visit the Tabletop Game Designers Association at ttgda.org to become a member and level up your tabletop game journey.
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[00:00:00] Azhelle Wade: You are listening to Making It in The Toy Industry, episode 274.
[00:00:10] Welcome to Making It In The Toy Industry, a podcast for inventors, entrepreneurs, and makers like you. And now your host, Azhelle Wade.
[00:00:22] Azhelle Wade: Hey there, toy people. Azhelle Wade here and welcome back to another episode of Making It in the Toy Industry. This is a weekly podcast brought to you by thetoycoach.com. Today I wanna talk about your dreams, specifically a dream you might have about becoming a toy industry renowned game designer.
[00:00:43] Azhelle Wade: Imagine developing a game that's complex, yet simple. One that requires players to strategically think and learn about something that you love. Imagine taking a hobby you love to the tabletop world, only to have the world fall in love with it as much as you fell in love with your hobby. For me, the dream of transforming my love for Salsa y Bachata dancing into a board game that people would love, ugh. Would just be a dream come true.
[00:01:07] Azhelle Wade: But today we're gonna be learning from someone who made that dream a reality. Elizabeth Hargrave, she took her passion for birding and transformed it into Wingspan, a game that didn't just land on shelves, it soared. Winning the 2019 Kennerspiel des Jahres and refining what a nature inspired game could be.
[00:01:28] Azhelle Wade: Whether you're just playtesting your first game prototype or your knee deep in the development process, this episode is a big opportunity to learn from a game designer who is on a hot streak in our industry, how she got there, and how you can too. Elizabeth, welcome to the show.
[00:01:43] Elizabeth Hargrave: Thanks for having me. What an intro.
[00:01:46] Azhelle Wade: Well, yeah, I would just a little special for you. You know, I get a little fun. So welcome, welcome, welcome. We just kind of happened to go to a after party. Where were we at Games For Change?
[00:01:58] Elizabeth Hargrave: So I was in New York for, yeah, for games For change.
[00:02:01] Azhelle Wade: Games For Change, yeah. And then we just ended up in the same group and ended up on this beautiful balcony with these cool people.
[00:02:07] Elizabeth Hargrave: Yeah. I mean, games people are fun people, right?
[00:02:09] Azhelle Wade: Yeah. Yeah. We did hang out with Eric Lang right at that time too.
[00:02:13] Elizabeth Hargrave: Yeah. Eric was there. Yeah, I remember Tanya Thompson from
[00:02:15] Azhelle Wade: Tanya was there, Dougle was there. It's so funny 'cause like when I end up in these rooms, I had no idea that you were Elizabeth Hargrave. And I did know about Wingspan, obviously, everyone talks about it. I think I texted my husband and I'm like, yeah, I'm like in a room with like Tanya and Dougle and Elizabeth. My husband, who now works at Hasbro, was like, I've never even met her. He is like, how did you end up in this room? I'm like, I don't know.
[00:02:38] Azhelle Wade: Eric Lang is like giving, is talking about like, there were some deep conversations happening about like society and I was like, there's a lot going on in here. This room is very full of intelligence. It was great. So I wanna talk about two things today, but before we dive in. Finish this sentence for me.
[00:02:53] Azhelle Wade: The thing that surprised me most about the toy and game industry was...
[00:02:58] Elizabeth Hargrave: Oh my gosh. I'll say specifically for board games, the thing that surprised me most is how many successful board game companies are somebody's side gig.
[00:03:10] Azhelle Wade: Oh, that's a good one.
[00:03:12] Elizabeth Hargrave: There are companies that when you see their name on the box, you think this is like an office with people in it and it's someone running a business like in their spare time.
[00:03:20] Azhelle Wade: Yeah. That's crazy. And is it like are they successful or are they just like they have to do both?
[00:03:27] Elizabeth Hargrave: Some of them have to do both. Board games is a tough industry and it's a crowded industry. Yes. And I think. It's probably very wise to start it as a side gig and then quit your day job once you know you're making it, right?
[00:03:39] Azhelle Wade: A hundred percent. I had Jeremy Posner on the podcast a few weeks back and he said if I were to give it to someone advice, it would be to start this career as a game inventor as a side hustle. Yeah. And I was like, you didn't even do that. And he was like, yeah, but he's like, that would've been the smart thing to do.
[00:03:58] Azhelle Wade: So first thing I wanna talk about is the Tabletop Game Designers Association. You co-founded this association. What is it and what gap are you looking to fill in the industry?
[00:04:07] Elizabeth Hargrave: Yeah, so it's an organization that's looking to serve specifically folks who are designing games, both board games and role playing games.
[00:04:18] Elizabeth Hargrave: And you know, we've been trying to not bite off more than we can chew. And our, we just finished our first year of existence. , but we've got sort of pillars that we're trying to build community in the gaming space we're trying to help sort of advocate with and for designers both sort of publicly. So I'm gonna join a lobbying day that, in a couple weeks on tariffs, right? Because those are definitely affecting us. And also advocating on a smaller scale for individual designers with individual publishers as they're negotiating contracts. We do contract reviews for folks and sort of have a checklist of things that you can look for yourself or that will help you look for in a contract.
[00:05:03] Elizabeth Hargrave: And we've had some really good success giving people language to suggest to publishers and, and getting these fixed and advocacy, just like in terms of like when the Origins awards were announced this year, that the nominees, they listed the games as if they were by publishers and never mentioned the designer names.
[00:05:20] Elizabeth Hargrave: You know, little nitpicky things like that. And then we have sort of a set of stuff that we're trying to do around education. We're running seminars at different gaming conventions. We've got a series of webinars that members can join in on. We just had one last night actually where the, the Gina Davis Institute came and talked about a tool that they've developed for people to think about character design and more inclusion and, diversity when you're designing characters.
[00:05:48] Azhelle Wade: The TTGDA.
[00:05:50] Azhelle Wade: Is it a nonprofit?
[00:05:52] Elizabeth Hargrave: It's a nonprofit, yes.
[00:05:53] Azhelle Wade: Awesome. So if someone wants to participate in it, what do they need to know? How do they get involved?
[00:05:58] Elizabeth Hargrave: You can just go to our website, which is ttgda.org. And there are some different membership options for folks who want to vote for the board and also get the contract review type services that I was talking about.
[00:06:10] Elizabeth Hargrave: It's a hundred dollars a year, but there's an associate membership that's sort of discounted if you wanna be just watching the webinars and things like that.
[00:06:18] Azhelle Wade: Awesome. I'll,
[00:06:19] Elizabeth Hargrave: and we'll always take donations on top. Yes. We've got a premium membership.
[00:06:23] Azhelle Wade: I will put the links in the show notes. I mean, that's awesome. I hope that you guys can stay as closely tied to your pillars as you are today 'cause we all know certain associations as they get larger, tend to veer off of course. So it's very important that we keep queue on your focus, what your pillars are, which I'm sure that's a priority of yours as well.
[00:06:46] Elizabeth Hargrave: Yeah. And we're just trying to work with a lot of folks have already spun up little, you know, mentorship programs and there's a great organization called Cardboard Edison that does like game designer surveys and, a lot has a lot of resources and we don't wanna like reinvent any of those wheels either. So we've been trying to sort of coordinate with people and yeah, try and plug the holes that we were seeing. And for me as a new game designer, the, contract stuff was a big one for sure.
[00:07:14] Azhelle Wade: No, that's so great. That's so helpful. I'd love to put this in as a resource as well for, I mean, it'll be here on the podcast, but I also wanna link certain parts in TCA for my students to know exactly where I do link a lot of Cardboard Edison and they have like a great compendium list.
[00:07:29] Elizabeth Hargrave: Yes.
[00:07:29] Azhelle Wade: Yeah. So I link that in my programs on this site too.
[00:07:32] Azhelle Wade: Community building. How has TTGDA fostered a sense of community among tabletop game designers? What do you guys have? Events? Do you have a Facebook group?
[00:07:42] Elizabeth Hargrave: We have a Discord.
[00:07:43] Azhelle Wade: Oh,
[00:07:43] Elizabeth Hargrave: I would say is the most active place. And some of you know, you see folks on there all the time asking for advice about pitching, or, I have this specific thing I'm trying to do in a game design, what should I be looking at? How could I approach this? So that's been really fun to see that get sort of some robust participation from folks. 'Cause discord is a very hit or miss. Like you need that, critical mass to get going.
[00:08:09] Azhelle Wade: So true.
[00:08:10] Elizabeth Hargrave: For it to actually feel worthwhile.
[00:08:11] Azhelle Wade: Yes. So true.
[00:08:13] Elizabeth Hargrave: So that's been fun.
[00:08:14] Azhelle Wade: And it's so hard. Some people that dunno how to use it. It's just, it's like you can't teach, it's like you have to want to get into discord. You have to know not to respond to everyone that messages you 'cause there are a lot of like, well I've gotten a lot of scam messages on Discord.
[00:08:29] Elizabeth Hargrave: Right. And it's key to also like, set your notifications in a way that doesn't make your phone explode.
[00:08:34] Azhelle Wade: Yeah. It's like, it's a learning curve. I think in like five years, my audience will be fully ready for Discord. But I've tried it once or twice and everyone's like, Azhelle, what is this? And I'm like, all right, nevermind. We'll go back to Facebook. I don't. My people aren't ready yet. They're not ready. It's too much.
[00:08:49] Elizabeth Hargrave: Yeah. And I've, my first couple experiences when I get offered to join a Discord, were with Discords that were too large and active almost, and I just find it totally overwhelming. But now I have, I have one that's local game designers here in the DC area that is just lovely and perfect. And then, the TTGDA one I am really appreciating too.
[00:09:11] Azhelle Wade: Oh, that's lovely.
[00:09:12] Azhelle Wade: Lucky you. I wanna be next. Make my active discord. So what are your plans for TTGDA? What are the plans for the next few years? Anything you wanna share about what's coming up?
[00:09:23] Elizabeth Hargrave: Yeah, I mean, I think we're still feeling that out. We just had our first election. So we've got a couple new board members and I think we'll be working on that. We would love to hear from folks about what they think would be most helpful. Definitely gonna spin out some more white papers. We put out one on the tariffs a few weeks ago. And are working on one on contract issues.
[00:09:47] Elizabeth Hargrave: And I think we'll be looking at other issues too, where we can weigh on where, again, we're not recreating the wheel. Like there's lots of stuff out there about game design more generally and sort of the craft of game design. And there's much less about how to actually survive in a more of a business sense and a professional sense in the industry.
[00:10:11] Elizabeth Hargrave: So I think we're focused a little bit more on that right now and we'll continue to take input from folks. And I think one of our, like nitty gritty goals for this year is to get some committees going so that we can have more people sort of contributing, and working on projects under our umbrella instead of just me and Jeff and send getting everything done.
[00:10:33] Azhelle Wade: No, that is the challenge, especially with a nonprofit. Okay, let's go into what everyone's here for, your success with wingspan and the upcoming game, Sanibel. That you've got coming out. So what inspired wingspan? What made you think, I can turn this hobby into a board game?
[00:10:53] Elizabeth Hargrave: Right. So it was already a hobby. Some people ask me that, I'm like, were you a birder? I was like, yes. It did not just randomly occur to me to make a board game about birds. Yeah, I'm a big birder and I was playing a lot of hobby board games, strategy games, and loving the feels of the mechanics of the games, but not so much the, like, what they were about.
[00:11:13] Elizabeth Hargrave: Right. Because there's an awful lot of like European trading and trains and colonialism and, what would it be like to have a game that wasn't about those things? Yeah. My spouse literally was like, we were playing a lot of race for the Galaxy at the time, which is another engine builder, and he was like.
[00:11:30] Elizabeth Hargrave: What would it look like to have like race for the galaxy, but it was birds and that was sort of the jumping off part. My brain wouldn't let it go.
[00:11:37] Azhelle Wade: Let's talk about engine builder. We haven't talked about like that specific mechanic of engine building. Like define it. What, how do describe the first game race for the Galaxy? I haven't played that.
[00:11:47] Elizabeth Hargrave: Oh yeah. So Race for the Galaxy is a card based game and you're playing cards out in front of you, and there's different actions you can take, and the cards that you play often will have ways that they let you do more as part of one of those actions that you've picked. So I am producing goods and if I have four production cards in front of me, that's better than having zero production cards in front of me, right?
[00:12:12] Elizabeth Hargrave: So each, as I have played those four cards out, each time I do that produce action that action itself gets better because I've played the cards and wingspan works kind of like that too, right? As you're playing birds on your player mat, the birds that you have on your mat are making the actions that you can take stronger.
[00:12:32] Elizabeth Hargrave: In wingspan there's sort of a double system going on. So like not all of the birds have a thing that they let you do, um, but just the fact of playing them on your player mat makes your actions better. So there's three actions you can take and you can gain food in one row of cards. You can lay eggs, which are points in one row, and you can draw cards in another row.
[00:12:56] Elizabeth Hargrave: And so if I say I'm going to the card row, I wanna draw cards. The default, if you have played no birds there is that you get to draw one card. But as you play, if you've played two birds in that row, now you're drawing two cards in each chart. If you've played more birds in the row, you're drawing more and more cards just from the fact that the birds are there and then many of the birds have on the bottom of them an extra thing that you also get to do when you're using that row of cards. So you start out with these wimpy little turns to draw a card, and by the end it's like, okay, I'm drawing four cards and then I am spending some of them to get points and I'm getting a food and I'm doing all this stuff. All on that same turn.
[00:13:37] Azhelle Wade: So what you plan one turn increases what you can do in future turn sounds a little bit like resource building. Maybe a little like catan in the sense of building up resources and creating something with them later.
[00:13:48] Elizabeth Hargrave: Yeah. Maybe a little bit.
[00:13:50] Azhelle Wade: Like the concept of engine building, not necessarily wing right. Wingspan.
[00:13:54] Elizabeth Hargrave: I actually think Monopoly is an engine builder.
[00:13:56] Azhelle Wade: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting.
[00:14:01] Elizabeth Hargrave: Because you're buying stuff. And that stuff is making you stronger over the course of the game.
[00:14:05] ''''''''''''''
[00:14:05] Elizabeth Hargrave: Talking about that the birds have on them that make your actions better, I was able to make some of them actually references to the actual birds. Yeah. So there's a bird called a brown headed cowbird.
[00:14:17] Elizabeth Hargrave: Okay. That has the characteristic that it lays its eggs in other bird's nest. It has learned how to get away without raising its own young Wow. Okay. Um, which genius is kind of remarkable. And, and so I always wanted that to be a thing in the game. So when people take the action of laying eggs, if you have a brown headed cow, you also get to lay eggs 'cause you're piggybacking on their egg laying.
[00:14:44] Elizabeth Hargrave: And so little things like that that are like references to the behavior of the birds, I definitely try to, to work in. And I think even just the fact that all the resources are the things that the birds actually eat and you know, things like that. Even though it is in one way just theme, it's like, so.
[00:15:01] Elizabeth Hargrave: Integrated that I think people make. I think it gives you a feeling of, of immersion that it doesn't feel pasted on. I think that's part of why people like it.
[00:15:10] Elizabeth Hargrave: So I have this question planned to ask you like about how a lot of inventors have an idea and they wanna create a game, and when they're new they normally just jump to the idea of like role and move or pull a card and move.
[00:15:23] Elizabeth Hargrave: But you started from a place of. A complex game mechanic. It was more like you saw you personally enjoyed a certain type of board game, but not the theme around it. So as you move forward and you're inventing new games and new things, is this gonna change the way that you invent? Like are you instead of.
[00:15:44] Elizabeth Hargrave: You know, are you going to let the games you already enjoy lead you to say, oh, what if this was done differently, thematically, as opposed to, to maybe combining a bunch of different mechanics and elements Like has the success of wingspan changed? I. How you invent.
[00:16:00] Elizabeth Hargrave: I don't know if it's really from the success of wingspan or just like practice as a game designer.
[00:16:04] Elizabeth Hargrave: Mm-hmm. Or how my brain works. But I would say usually my jumping off point is number one, oh, that's a cool thing in the world. People should know about that. Uhhuh. And then number two. Okay. What would that be in a game mechanic? So I did a game called Mary Pose. It's about the migration of. Monarch butterflies.
[00:16:22] Elizabeth Hargrave: Okay. And that I was like, okay, so there has to be a map. The butterflies have to be moving around and I have to come up with incentives that are causing the butterflies to move, basically, in a way that feels like that migration pattern. I've played a lot of games that involve movement on a map, Uhhuh. So that's like, yes, I'm kind of riffing on those, but mostly it was like, okay, this is a story I wanna tell.
[00:16:44] Elizabeth Hargrave: This is a thing I wanna tell people about. And what conveys that information?
[00:16:49] Elizabeth Hargrave: Oh, really interesting. So. Like the migration of the monarch butterflies, is that what you said is what inspired you? Like people need to know, like people should know about how cool this migration is. Yeah, and, and because you're a board game designer, you're like board game People need to know how cool this ion is.
[00:17:07] Elizabeth Hargrave: How would I make my board game friends? No. Oh, that's so, that's interesting.
[00:17:12] Elizabeth Hargrave: Yeah. Or like, you know, I've, you mentioned Bel that's coming out next year. Yeah. Um, and that was literally my dad while we were at the beach, just being like, there should be a game about collecting seashells on the beach. I was like, there should be a game about that.
[00:17:26] Elizabeth Hargrave: I, why isn't there a game about that? And so that one again was like, okay, so what if you were literally walking along the beach? So there's a board and you're moving your pieces along the board, and as you move your pieces, you get to pick up. Tiles that have shells on them. So it's like very much from that, like, okay, the story of this game is that you're walking along the beach.
[00:17:45] Elizabeth Hargrave: Let's actually walk along a beach.
[00:17:47] Elizabeth Hargrave: Well, let's talk through a turn of Sanibel real quick. How does a turn start? Do you roll? How does it play?
[00:17:53] Elizabeth Hargrave: Uh, you get to decide how far forward you go, but the board is divided up into. Seven sections, I think it is. And within each section there's a bunch of shells sitting there and there are multiple footprints on that section.
[00:18:08] Elizabeth Hargrave: And if you go the farthest forward in the section, you get the most shells. So I might jump ahead and land on this. Three footprint, which gives me three shells from that space. But the twist is if you've played to chito, it's to to chito style movement. It's a time track. Basically, the person who is in the back of the line always goes next.
[00:18:29] Elizabeth Hargrave: So there's a series of spaces that you can move, but instead of rolling a a dye to tell you how far forward you get to go, you get to choose how far forward to go. The trick is that you're not taking turns just in a turn order around the table. You're taking turns. By who's in Beck? Mm. So the person who has moved the least or is just farthest back on the track, they get to go next, and if there are spaces available, they might be able to go twice before you get your next turn.
[00:18:59] Elizabeth Hargrave: Mm-hmm. If you jumped farther forward so far. But there are benefits to jumping forward because you get first dibs on the shelves, you might get the most shelves. So there's a tension there of like, ah, I really want that thing, but can I afford to like, not jump forward and, and buy my time and get more shells on the way?
[00:19:15] Elizabeth Hargrave: Or should I just jump and get the thing?
[00:19:16] Elizabeth Hargrave: This is so interesting 'cause it's like, I wanna almost lay a, a visual of like two columns of how a newbie inventor might approach inventing a game like Sanibel versus how your mind thinks about. Designing a game like Anibel. So like a new inventor might say, oh, there should be a game about collecting seashells on the beach.
[00:19:36] Elizabeth Hargrave: And they might even go as simple as to think like memory card collection. Like, oh, we're gonna have a bunch of cards with seashells on them and you're gonna match them, or we're gonna have a bunch of cards and you're gonna pull one and you have to identify the seashell or. Something before you can like move to a space or let's say, and those games can over time develop and grow, but there's so much more depth in the way that you approach it where you are thinking like, how do you express the experience of hunting for seashells?
[00:20:08] Elizabeth Hargrave: And actually translate what happens in real life to board game life. And then that makes you go, well, you walk and you look wherever you want. So the idea of a random dice roll might not make. Wouldn't be the best way to express that. What other ways are there to express that? Like that's kind of how, it seems like your brain is working.
[00:20:30] Elizabeth Hargrave: That's part of it. And I think that the other piece of it is that I'm always looking for how to, to give people interesting decisions to think about. Mm-hmm. Um. And is like, so if I get to make an interesting decision on every turn of like, Ooh, I wanna go forward, but I want buy my time, you know, like that, that I think makes it a much richer gameplay experience.
[00:20:52] Elizabeth Hargrave: Mm.
[00:20:53] Elizabeth Hargrave: How many decisions are you looking for people to make every turn? One many questions. Well, that's the, I
[00:20:57] Elizabeth Hargrave: think that's the key that you really have to refine is that you don't want the options to be so wide open that people feel overwhelmed. Overwhelmed. Mm-hmm. But if you can give just that like, pleasant level of tension without overwhelmed, that's, that's a lot of what I'm looking for, I think.
[00:21:16] Elizabeth Hargrave: Hmm. Yeah. The other thing with Sanibel, the, that evolved as I was working on the game is that I started out actually the, the shells were just. Cards and you were picking them and it was, you know, collecting sets of things. And I actually wanted like another, another little level of thinkness to it. So they ended up being tiles that you're placing onto your own personal little player mat.
[00:21:38] Elizabeth Hargrave: Yes. And so then there are rules about like what wants to be next to what, and are you trying to get big continuous groups or. Separate groups or they, so the different types of shells have different rules for placement. Um, so there's that interesting decision in picking them up at all. And then interesting decisions about how do you solve the puzzle of where they should go on your board.
[00:21:58] Elizabeth Hargrave: Hmm.
[00:21:58] Elizabeth Hargrave: What's your favorite, I feel like wingspan or Sanibel. Which one is your favorite right now? Because I'm feeling like I'm hearing a pull in one direction more than the other. I can't pick my baby. I know you have to choose one.
[00:22:13] Elizabeth Hargrave: I mean, yeah, I'm, I'm always super excited for the next thing that's coming, but, um, it's hard to not super value the, the success of wingspan and, and everything that, that comes with that.
[00:22:27] Elizabeth Hargrave: Talk to me about the early days of pitching wingspan. I wanna hear your first pitch. What happened? Did they love it instantly? Or were people like, no one wants a game about birds? Please stop.
[00:22:39] Elizabeth Hargrave: Like what happened? Um, yeah, so I had been play testing, play testing, play testing. At some point, my play tester started asking me if they could buy my prototype.
[00:22:47] Elizabeth Hargrave: I was like, all right, maybe it is time to pitch. Oh, wow. Um, I did not know anyone in the industry. Really, that's not true. I was play testing some with other published designers, but like in terms of setting up meetings, I was literally just cold emailing people. I set up a bunch of meetings at GenCon. Wait,
[00:23:05] Elizabeth Hargrave: was this your first game?
[00:23:07] Elizabeth Hargrave: This is my first game. I didn't know that. I assumed it wasn't because I was like, it's like gold. So what? It was wild. So what? This was your first game? That's not fair. Yeah. No, it's not. It's not. It's not what usually happens. Congratulations. I mean, thank you. Okay.
[00:23:29] Elizabeth Hargrave: Yeah. Wow. So I was cold emailing people and setting up meetings.
[00:23:34] Elizabeth Hargrave: Um. Which is very different now, right? Yeah. Like I don't have to try Hard to fix. Now they call you and
[00:23:39] Elizabeth Hargrave: they're like, we would love an exclusive. Could you not invent for anyone else? Thanks.
[00:23:46] Elizabeth Hargrave: So yeah, so I set up meetings. I, it was terrifying.
[00:23:49] Elizabeth Hargrave: Wow.
[00:23:50] Elizabeth Hargrave: I remember I, one thing that I did that was super helpful. Yeah.
[00:23:54] Elizabeth Hargrave: Was, um. Right before I went and did the pitch meetings, I actually took out my phone and I was like recording myself doing the first like couple minutes of like, this is my game, couple minute description and then just ending with like, you know, we've got 15 or 20 minutes, I could show you a few turns if you want, and like, what questions do you have?
[00:24:15] Elizabeth Hargrave: That was super helpful 'cause I had to do it like approximately a zillion times and, but by the end of it I was getting through it without stumbling. Yeah. Um, which I think helped me because then when you're in the pitch, you're like on so much adrenaline and like nerves that if you haven't done that practice, I think you, uh, like.
[00:24:37] Elizabeth Hargrave: I could have completely fallen apart, but I kind of had the muscle memory of doing it because I had done it so many times and filmed myself and forced myself to watch myself doing it and realizing like where I was stumbling and what was awkward. Yeah, I'm super glad I did that. So then, yeah, so I pitched it to three different companies at GenCon and one of them was Stone Meyer.
[00:24:55] Elizabeth Hargrave: Um, they had a bunch of feedback for me. They did not instantly love it. It was a simpler, very different game at the. Point of pitching. So they like gave me a bunch of feedback and they were like. Send us another version of this. Like, we think there's something here. Oh, okay. Go work on our feedback. Send us, I guess actually first they asked me by this, so this was by email after GenCon, like, what would you do to address our feedback?
[00:25:21] Elizabeth Hargrave: And so I sent them this email that, you know, like, thank God I had taken notes on all this stuff mm-hmm. That they had. Mm-hmm. And, and, um. I sent them an email saying like, this is what I would do. I think these could be the next steps. And they were like, great, that all sounds good. Send us that. So I took a couple months and worked on it for a while and, and sent it to them and, and then by the end of the year we had a contract.
[00:25:41] Elizabeth Hargrave: Wow. That doesn't always happen. That's so wonderful that, how did you think of pitching to them? What, what, uh, drew you to Stone?
[00:25:49] Elizabeth Hargrave: Yeah, so that was a hard question of like. Because no one was doing games like this. Right. So who should I pitch it to? Right. And it was actually viticulture in their catalog that, I don't know what it is about that game that kind of gave me the, it was just like a gut feel thing.
[00:26:05] Elizabeth Hargrave: Mm-hmm. But it's like, it's a very real world feeling. Game viticulture and sort of pleasant engine build like, yeah. Something about that. So it was just that one game in their catalog that made me think, because the game that they had just had. Come out with size, which like that would never have made me think, oh, I should put
[00:26:22] Elizabeth Hargrave: wingspan just stone on her cake.
[00:26:24] Elizabeth Hargrave: No, I'm just so, I'm, you know, when, where'd you first hear about them?
[00:26:29] Elizabeth Hargrave: I think viticulture and then science like that. They were on my radar and I was just like literally going through the list of all the companies and that were gonna be exhibiting at GenCon and like looking at their catalog. Okay.
[00:26:38] Azhelle Wade: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:26:39] Elizabeth Hargrave: Wow. Trying to figure it out. That is.
[00:26:41] Azhelle Wade: Incredible. Okay. Yeah. So within a year you had, so then talk to me about the lift off of wingspan. So how long Pun intended. So how long before you were like, oh, this is like a big deal.
[00:26:55] Elizabeth Hargrave: Jamie Ste Meyer at Stone Meyer Games started teasing it. So they did direct to retail, although they, I guess like the first launch was really direct sales off their website and, and they have a big mailing list.
[00:27:07] Elizabeth Hargrave: It's a very successful strategy for them. So he started teasing it to his followers at the end of 2018. And there was a little sense just at that point that people were kind of excited for this in a way that we did not anticipate. He had reached out to distributors trying to figure out how many to print.
[00:27:28] Elizabeth Hargrave: And they were like, I don't know, like first time designer game about birds. Like what's up with that? Right? Like we're not not
[00:27:37] Azhelle Wade: really that excited. We don't think, we think you're a low cry. Cry actually. Yeah.
[00:27:42] Elizabeth Hargrave: So he, I think just from the reaction he was getting from the teasers he was putting on Facebook, he already.
[00:27:49] Elizabeth Hargrave: Ordered another print
[00:27:50] Azhelle Wade: run. Oh, wow.
[00:27:51] Elizabeth Hargrave: But, um, it took a while to catch up, so he put his first print run up for sale and it sold out very fast, like within days.
[00:27:59] Azhelle Wade: Wow. What, wait, and this is like, you didn't have a following that you were pushing to them? No. Wow. No, I
[00:28:05] Elizabeth Hargrave: had been doing a, I mean, a little bit like on yeah, on social media, trying to like, make connections with other people in the industry.
[00:28:13] Elizabeth Hargrave: Yeah. And like going to board gaming stuff. But no, I didn't have like a real following, but Stone Meyer does Ja and Jamie personally does. So like,
[00:28:21] Azhelle Wade: but it, it seems then you really just identified a, a massive hole, like there were no birding. Yeah. Games, like, not that anybody would ever be like. You know, what's really missing in the industry.
[00:28:32] Azhelle Wade: Like nobody would say that. That's like saying, you know what, we're missing. We're missing a salsa dancing game. What is someone gonna do that? You know? But, well, yeah, I, I mean, in
[00:28:41] Elizabeth Hargrave: the last five years, a lot of nature themed games have come up, but at that time there were not a ton interesting of nature themed games.
[00:28:47] Elizabeth Hargrave: And I think it's, it's that more generally of just people wanting that connection. Yeah. That's crazy to that part of the world. Everyone has some way that they connect to birds more than they connect to like the medieval French city of Carcassone. Mm-hmm.
[00:29:04] Azhelle Wade: Right? Yes. Mm-hmm. Yes. I do not connect to medieval French city.
[00:29:09] Azhelle Wade: What's amazing, so it's. Sold out immediately. Then what happened? Like at what point were you called and they were like, Elizabeth, we have something we need you to, like what? What happened? Like did the world open up for you and how did that happen?
[00:29:22] Elizabeth Hargrave: Yeah. I think it was that March I got an email from the New York Times wanting to do a profile of meeting.
[00:29:28] Elizabeth Hargrave: Oh my gosh. And what were you thinking? I think that was like the next. Wrong. Like, uh, okay, your game is now like sold out and like going for hundreds of dollars on eBay and whatever. And, and so now the New York Times wants to interview you. The science editor of the New York Times is a board gamer and was like on the Stone Meyer Okay.
[00:29:47] Elizabeth Hargrave: Mailing list. And so was getting like emails from Jamie. Jamie wrote an email at one point apologizing that he hadn't printed board games because are you serious? What? So you got all of that. It was like, we gotta do a, like this is science. It's a game about science. Wow. We can do, yeah. So that was super fun.
[00:30:08] Elizabeth Hargrave: And then like once the New York Times thinks you're news, then like it's just, it snowballed from there. And then I would say the next key point was getting nominated for the Kender spiel de Yaris. Which within sort of strategy board games is a really big deal. People call it like the Oscars of board games so that the nominations just come out.
[00:30:29] Elizabeth Hargrave: So that was, that was like in May that it got nominated and then the award is in July. So winning it is like the next level. So that was that July. So this was all in the course of like seven, eight months.
[00:30:41] Azhelle Wade: Oh my gosh. From like,
[00:30:42] Elizabeth Hargrave: oh, this could be a thing to like sold out New York Times Kenner spiel
[00:30:46] Azhelle Wade: like.
[00:30:47] Azhelle Wade: And then what happened with Anibel. So now you're just this hot on fire game designer who just hit it outta the park, her first game. And it's so cool that everyone thinks she's just been doing this for years. So what, what happened next? Like how did Anibel come to be?
[00:31:04] Elizabeth Hargrave: Well, there's a bunch of games in between.
[00:31:05] Elizabeth Hargrave: Oh my gosh.
[00:31:07] Azhelle Wade: Well, I mean, I guess I connected to Sanibel because I know Yeah, I guess I, I'm hiding info that I know.
[00:31:13] Elizabeth Hargrave: So, so yeah, I've had a few other games come out and they've done like, perfectly nicely by board game standards and, and it's been super fun. And Sanibel be, I was. Play testing at the Gathering of Friends, which is a gathering of board game designers and industry people that happens every year.
[00:31:35] Elizabeth Hargrave: And Tanya Thompson, who I'm friends with at Hasbro, I was like, oh, do you have anything to pitch to me? Mm-hmm. And I said, it is now ready to pitch, but I'm, I'm gonna be play testing this game with people at the Gathering if you want to get in on a play test. And you could see, like, if you would one day want me to pitch it to you.
[00:31:53] Elizabeth Hargrave: Oh. And so she came and played it and offered me an option
[00:31:57] Azhelle Wade: pretty quickly after she was like, we're not, we're not messing this up again. We're gonna, I'm just gonna lock this one in before anyone sees this. Um, anyone finds out what's going on here?
[00:32:08] Elizabeth Hargrave: I had actually gotten an offer a couple weeks earlier than that.
[00:32:11] Elizabeth Hargrave: Are you serious? Um, at Im pub, like I, people like this game. Oh, wow. I'm excited for it to come out. Oh,
[00:32:17] Azhelle Wade: wow.
[00:32:18] Elizabeth Hargrave: And it, but it's, you know what, it's really, so this is the flip side of like, okay, one end of the spectrum is like brand new designers just like scrapping to get meetings even. And the other end now is like, I am scared sometimes that publishers want my game.
[00:32:35] Elizabeth Hargrave: Whether they actually like stop to think about whether it's good or not. And I feel like I have to like stop and have that like reflection and checks to make sure that. Stuff doesn't get signed. Just 'cause it's me that we still have to like put in the work. Right?
[00:32:50] Azhelle Wade: Oh, a hundred percent. No offense, it is gonna happen just 'cause it's you.
[00:32:53] Azhelle Wade: I feel like it happens with any celebrity. It becomes your responsibility, like you're saying, to make sure it's good because they just trust you and your following so much that they're gonna just be like, well listen. If Elizabeth says this is a good game, then this is a good game. So it, I, I think actually, and so I think
[00:33:12] Elizabeth Hargrave: part of that was like, you know, being like, this game isn't actually where I would pitch it yet.
[00:33:17] Elizabeth Hargrave: Yeah. It still needs work. And like, being aware of that. And then even once I have the contract, like, we're gonna keep working on this for a while. Well, because they see
[00:33:26] Azhelle Wade: the potential now. So now it's no longer them really seeing your game. They're seeing you as potential. So they're like. This has bones and that's all we need to know.
[00:33:34] Azhelle Wade: Yeah. 'cause we know Elizabeth's gonna take it further and then that's it. But that, that's actually really interesting. I wonder if, as you continue to grow, are you going to want or need to hire somebody to be. Like you're, to be honest, like somebody on Right. Someone on your team who is just gonna like, be completely honest with you.
[00:33:53] Azhelle Wade: Yeah. So that you don't let something go out and then ta Yeah. And then it tanks, and then you ruin your reputation. Right. That's interesting. We,
[00:34:00] Elizabeth Hargrave: we do, we have a great community of board game designers here in the DC area. Yeah. And I feel like they can be that sort of sounding board of like, they, you know, they've been there from the beginning, some of them for me, and they'll tell me when I'm full.
[00:34:14] Azhelle Wade: Interesting. So which side do you like being on better? The side where you're chasing. You're desperately trying to get a response back from an email or the side where you're avoiding phone calls because they just won't stop. No, your phone's off. The hook is which side do you enjoy the most?
[00:34:31] Elizabeth Hargrave: Oh, I'm not gonna turn down my success.
[00:34:33] Elizabeth Hargrave: It's been a lot of
[00:34:34] Azhelle Wade: fun. It's been great. Okay. That's good to hear. That's good. Sometimes people are like, oh, I miss the days when I could be a free creative, and you're like, no, I like this. No, but I mean,
[00:34:43] Elizabeth Hargrave: I, I think it buys me a lot of freedom to be creative for me. Oh, I
[00:34:47] Azhelle Wade: love
[00:34:47] Elizabeth Hargrave: that. I don't have to, I have so many friends that are trying to do design full-time that it's just, it becomes a grind.
[00:34:54] Elizabeth Hargrave: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You get enough stuff out onto the market to make a living at it, and I'm making a living at wingspan and everything else is just like icing on the top and, and just fun being creative. Yeah. It sounds, it's a huge luxury. Industry,
[00:35:08] Azhelle Wade: it's, it sounds like an earned luxury. So it sounds like your games by default often teach people a lot.
[00:35:14] Azhelle Wade: You mentioned Mariosa, you mentioned Sanibel and Wingspan and, and I'm sure there are several others, and please do send me the link. I would love to put them in the show notes, but it sounds like your games are always informative and fun. Is that the case or has that just kind of happened?
[00:35:31] Elizabeth Hargrave: So far, yes. I mean, it's not like a a hundred percent commitment that I make, that I will always have some element of education.
[00:35:39] Elizabeth Hargrave: I mean, yeah, some of it's pretty subtle. Like Sanibel is arguably, like we put a couple pages in the rule book about the actual critters that make the she and like this is like, I don't know, just little fun facts about. About the different animals that you're picking up on the beach or the shells of the animal, the animals whose shells you're picking up on the beach.
[00:36:01] Elizabeth Hargrave: But like, is that really like an a teaching game? I don't, it's, or is it just like, oh, here's some fun information that you can interact with if you want, but you could also play the game and never read that stuff and it would work just fine, but Yeah, but they're, they're very reality based. I really resonate with themes that are about.
[00:36:21] Elizabeth Hargrave: Something in the world, um, instead of making stuff up. I don't know why that or what that says about me.
[00:36:29] Azhelle Wade: No, I, I mean, I, I, I think it's, I like, I
[00:36:32] Elizabeth Hargrave: didn't grow up on Dungeons and Dragons. Like, that's like, all the fantasy stuff is just like, not my jam and I don't know why. I don't know. I mean,
[00:36:40] Azhelle Wade: I, I, there's
[00:36:41] Elizabeth Hargrave: enough magic in the world already.
[00:36:42] Azhelle Wade: Well, I applaud that you are making magic out of like an everyday occurrence that you're able to make an experience. To like come to the tabletop, you're able to make entertainment education in a way that doesn't feel like education. Uh, it sounds pretty cool. Yeah, I wanna, I'm interested to see, to play the Mario Posta game.
[00:37:01] Azhelle Wade: I love butterflies. To me, they're like a spirit animal, so I, I'm very interested to check that. Gonna get my husband to buy it for me. Bring it home. Uh, he's the game master in our house. So I wanna get into some advice for aspiring designers. Is there some key advice that you would give to game inventors or aspiring game inventors who are looking to create more complex and engaging games?
[00:37:24] Azhelle Wade: Perhaps they've gotten the feedback that a lot of their ideas are, you know, that role and move concept. What would you recommend they do to level up their game design skills?
[00:37:34] Elizabeth Hargrave: For my process, it's always about getting it to the table and not. Trying to work it all out in your head. Mm. Um, I often, if I'm aspiring for something to be fairly complex, I'll still start with a small piece of it and then figure out how to layer things on top of that, like I talked about with Bel, right?
[00:37:54] Elizabeth Hargrave: Like I. Just a small piece of picking up the shell is, okay, this is kind of working, but it needs something more. Like, what, what do I add to, to give it a little bit more? Mm-hmm. Um, more than like, because if you try and work everything out in your head before you make a prototype, there's a. Decent chance that you'll spend a lot of time working it out.
[00:38:14] Elizabeth Hargrave: And then the, in your first play test, you'll realize like, you didn't think of this one thing that invalidates half of that work that you put in, right? Mm-hmm. So much better to just like test and test and iterate. That's very much my process.
[00:38:27] Azhelle Wade: And like at what point do you test, like, so say you like actually, do you remember the first set of rules of Sanibel that you tested?
[00:38:35] Azhelle Wade: That maybe somebody else would say, oh, that's not a finished game. But you thought, no, I need to test it anyway.
[00:38:40] Elizabeth Hargrave: I will often print something out or grab a bunch of pieces and just play it actually on my desk right here by myself. Uh, I'll like pretend to be two players, so that's my first, like, but I, I have to physically manipulate the things.
[00:38:53] Elizabeth Hargrave: But how do, how deep into
[00:38:55] Azhelle Wade: the rules are you? Like, are the rules done enough that you could even finish the game if you wanted to? Or are they all Oh, no, it's just
[00:39:01] Elizabeth Hargrave: like, oh, would this work to move things around in this way? Mm. Like,
[00:39:04] Azhelle Wade: yeah. Uh, tell me if you have this broken down, and you may not, are there a checklist of things that you're looking at when you're developing your game?
[00:39:10] Azhelle Wade: Like, I need to figure out the way they're gonna move. I need to figure out the way they're gonna collect points. I need to figure out the way they're gonna sabotage. I need to figure out like, do you have key points like that so that maybe you're like, all right, let me try out these different movements.
[00:39:22] Azhelle Wade: You test those, you pick one, lemme try out these different collection mechanics. Test those out. Try those. Do you approach it in that
[00:39:30] Elizabeth Hargrave: way? Um, it's usually not like, here's a list of things I could do and I'm gonna try all five of them. Mm-hmm. It's much more of a, like, this game is about X.
[00:39:39] Azhelle Wade: Mm-hmm.
[00:39:39] Elizabeth Hargrave: I want x to feel a certain way.
[00:39:43] Elizabeth Hargrave: X implies certain things about who you should be in the game and what actions you would be taking in the game. Okay. Like, what, what does that look like? Then I just try a thing and I figure out like what felt good, what didn't feel good, and I changed the things that didn't feel good. Right. And double down on the things that did feel good.
[00:40:02] Elizabeth Hargrave: So there may have been six other options that I never get to because something worked the first time I tried it. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It, it's very not scientific. It's much more like. Kind of storytelling, I think. Mm. Than it is to, um, experimentation, but it's a, you know, it's iterating and experimenting in the sense of editing.
[00:40:27] Elizabeth Hargrave: Interesting. More than like, trying everything. Interesting.
[00:40:30] Azhelle Wade: Okay. I wanna wrap up our conversations today with my a few closing questions. So you've been a published game designer for five years with your first game ever. Getting licensed wild. I did not, I can't believe I didn't know that. So what are you hoping to achieve in, in one year?
[00:40:47] Azhelle Wade: What's your goal?
[00:40:48] Elizabeth Hargrave: Mostly I'm excited for Sanibel to come out. I hope that that does well, that it resonates with people. We're we're getting little bits of that thing that we got with wingspan of like, people are sending pic stories about like growing up shelving on Bel or their grandmother took them to Bel or like things.
[00:41:04] Elizabeth Hargrave: There's like a, that little bit of like that personal connection that's nice to what the game is about. Yeah. That's, that's been really cool to see already. And it's the only, you know, we're still at least six months out I think, from me coming. Uh, actually we'll have a copy to preview at GenCon and then I'm, I'm wanna help get the TT GDA up in and, uh, more established and doing good things in the world too, and sort of help lift all the other boats.
[00:41:30] Elizabeth Hargrave: What's the saying, right, of like, mm-hmm. Um, you know, those of us that are on the board are sort of making it an industry and wanna help showcase other designers, get them established. Mm-hmm. Help smooth the road for them a little bit.
[00:41:43] Azhelle Wade: Yeah. No, that's fantastic. What is one bit of advice you wish those new designers knew?
[00:41:49] Azhelle Wade: Before they got started,
[00:41:51] Elizabeth Hargrave: couple of things, I think, uh, and there's sort of two sides of the same coin. One is to realize that everybody's just faking it.
[00:42:00] Azhelle Wade: Mm.
[00:42:01] Elizabeth Hargrave: That you don't have to like, know everything about it came designed to get going, that we're all sort of muddling through. Um, but the flip side of that.
[00:42:11] Elizabeth Hargrave: Is to not be overconfident, to be like, play tons of games. Work as much on like developing your own sense of taste and how games work as you can, because I think that that's like you wanna know when your game is done. Yeah. In a sense of like, not having it be just about the anxiety of letting a thing on the world, but more of like, I have a sense of taste and I know that this is good.
[00:42:40] Azhelle Wade: Mm-hmm.
[00:42:41] Elizabeth Hargrave: And I think that can get you along way.
[00:42:44] Azhelle Wade: I love that. And my final and favorite question, what game blew your mind as a kid? I loved mouse track. Oh really? I, I liked. The look of mousetrap. And then I remember playing it and I was like, this game is garbage.
[00:42:58] Elizabeth Hargrave: I not like it's garbage as a game. It's really fun to build the thing.
[00:43:02] Elizabeth Hargrave: Yeah. And I loved, um, I really love, I still love logic puzzles, so I love Mastermind. Oh, cool. And, um,
[00:43:10] Azhelle Wade: clue. Oh cool. Oh man. Mouse trap. That's a good one. I'm excited to make that graphic. Well, Elizabeth, I love playing with my hands. I like to physically build the thing. Oh, I could see, oh, are you gonna do a mouse trap inspired game next?
[00:43:25] Azhelle Wade: Let's see. Right. I know how like what board game company will invest that much in plastic now for a board game. Like if you showed a mousetrap like concept, people would be like, mm, no. Thanks. We don't want, that's too much. We don't need to make all those molds, board games sell without all that.
[00:43:41] Elizabeth Hargrave: Right. The question was, what, what blew my mind?
[00:43:43] Elizabeth Hargrave: And like, yes. Just like that blew my mind. It
[00:43:46] Azhelle Wade: it did, yeah. Mousetrap was, I, I remember watching the commercial. I was like, how does it work? It's amazing. Yeah. That's cool. Thank you so much for sharing your journey and your insights with us today. It was really inspiring and now I feel like I even have a new way to think about creating games.
[00:44:05] Azhelle Wade: I'm doing a project with a company now and they wanna create a, a small, simple game, but, and we're almost done, but I really like this new way of thinking about it to bring the experience to life. I mean, that actually in the game we're creating, we are bringing an experience to life, but I. I wish we had more time to dive into it further.
[00:44:23] Azhelle Wade: 'cause the way you're thinking, you, you think about it, is even more in depth and that's, oh, I love that. That's really, it's given me a new way to think about game design. Awesome. Yeah. Thank you. Can't wait to see what you come up with. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's done already, but, but the next question, but the next one, if they wanna do another one and they wanna spend more time and do strategy instead of like a light.
[00:44:44] Azhelle Wade: Family game, then Yes, that would be, I'm already getting ideas. We're gonna have to roll out a map for sure. Oh my gosh. From the foundational goals of game design that you share to the Tabletop Game Designers Association and the build process, uh, that you use to create your game like wing spend and Sanibel, it's so clear that you have massive passion and a natural talent for this work.
[00:45:09] Azhelle Wade: So for all of our listeners out there, please remember that. Man, it is hard to make it in the toying game industry, but there are people like Elizabeth out there that are trying to make the path a little bit smoother for you to come on in. So don't be afraid. Even though it sounds like she made a big, impactful project in this industry and had a rare experience of getting her first game licensed, but she is also clearing the path.
[00:45:35] Azhelle Wade: She's out here clearing the path for you to do the same. So please reach out to. Tabletop Game Designers Association. If you need more help and if you love this podcast and you haven't already left a review, what are you waiting for? Your reviews keep me coming back week after week and encourages guests like Elizabeth to join us here on the show.
[00:45:54] Azhelle Wade: So wherever you're listening to this episode, please leave a rating and review. It puts a huge smile on my face. I get a notification on my phone every time a new review comes in. To connect with our guest, head over to the toy coach.com/podcast and look. For this episode, all the links will be in the show notes.
[00:46:12] Azhelle Wade: As always, thank you so much for spending this time with me today. I know your time is valuable and that there are a ton of podcasts out there, so it truly means the world to me that you tune into this one. Until next week, I'll see you later Toy people.
[00:46:27] Thanks for listening to the Making It In The Toy Industry Podcast with Azhelle Wade.
[00:46:33] Head over to the toy coach.com for more information, tips, and advice.
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