#291: Toy Creators Academy Coaching Call with Melanie Palmer
Your toy is 90% done… for the fifth time. You keep playtesting, tweaking, second-guessing, and you’re convinced it’s not ready. But what if all that perfectionism is what’s actually holding you back?
In this episode of Making It In The Toy Industry, I’m coaching Melanie Palmer, Toy Creators Academy alum and founder of Emmers, a joyful toy brand designed to help kids build emotional skills through stories, games, and play.
With a psychology degree from Duke, an MBA from Harvard, and over a decade working in emotional education, Melanie had the passion and the credentials. But when it came time to create and launch a physical product? She quickly found herself overwhelmed, overthinking, and stuck in the playtesting loop.
Inside Toy Creators Academy, she got the clarity, tools, and support she needed to stop spinning her wheels and finally bring her vision to life.
Here’s what we dig into:
The perfectionism trap that kept her game in development for over a year
How her early interviews revealed a huge white space in the market
Why she’s choosing to not be the face of her brand and what’s taking the spotlight instead
The heart-melting moment that showed her product really works
If you're building something with purpose and wondering, "Am I doing this right?", Melanie’s story is proof that you don’t need to rush, and you don’t have to figure it out alone.
Enroll today at thetoycoach.com/tca
Listen For These Important Moments
[00:06:12] - Discover how to validate your idea and spot opportunities others are missing.
[00:11:05] - If you’re stuck tweaking your game forever, you’ll learn how to decide when it’s time to launch.
[00:14:28] - Learn where to focus now if you’re juggling product dev and visibility.
[00:24:04] - Hear creative ways to build connection and authority without putting yourself front and center.
[00:39:00] - A dad learns his child’s favorite part of the week was simply being picked up from school. Cue the tears.
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This episode is brought to you by www.thetoycoach.com
Got a toy idea you can’t stop thinking about? Toy Creators Academy gives you the tools, support, and step-by-step plan to make it real, just like it did for Gerardo. Start your journey at toycreatorsacademy.com
🛒 Preorder Emmers’ Emotion Seekers game & book set now at emmersco.com —shipping in November! -
Azhelle Wade: You are listening to Making It in the Toy Industry, episode number 291.
Voiceover: Welcome to Making It in the Toy Industry, a podcast for inventors, entrepreneurs, and makers like you. And now your host, Azhelle Wade.
Azhelle Wade: Hey there, toy people. Azhelle Wade here and welcome back to another episode of Making It in the Toy Industry. This is a weekly podcast brought to you by TheToyCoach.com.
My guest today is a TCA alumni, and they're joining us for a coaching call. Melanie Palmer is the founder of Emmer's, a play-based emotional learning company that helps kids build emotional skills through game stories and a lovable monster. Characters with a psychology degree from Duke and an MBA from Harvard.
Melanie spent over a decade leading a national nonprofit focused on healthy relationships, education, and abuse prevention. This work, combined with her lived experience as a mom and her deep bond as Auntie Em to 11 nieces and nephews, inspired her to create Emmer's. Emmer's unlocks the power of play to nurture a child's emotional development, transforming everyday moments into opportunities for joyful, meaningful connection. Emmer's first products include the Emotion Seekers board game and three children's books, games, and stories that build emotional skills. Melanie, welcome to the show.
Melanie Palmer: Thank you. Thank absolutely much for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
Azhelle Wade: Well, I have a run of show for our coaching calls, but I just, I have to just kind of go away from that for a second and say, how does my teaching compare to Harvard? It's, I mean, it's the same. Oh, it's—
Melanie Palmer: The same, if not—
Azhelle Wade: Better. Obviously. I think it's obviously. Oh my heart. Like, what, I mean, I guess I knew this because I read it, but I forgot or something, Jesus. I mean, how educated can one person be? Duke, and I mean Duke and Harvard and. Okay, I mean, the fact that I get to be said, oh, it's, yeah, actually, I should update this with a psychology degree from Duke and an MBA. From Harvard and a certificate from Toy Creators Academy. There. Yeah. There you go. Welcome to the show.
So impressive. Really, love. Want to hear about your brand and what you're building, and as much detail as you can share about the product, because I know we are talking pre-launch. We'll get into that. But this interview is really designed to spotlight your journey into Toy Creators Academy. We'll walk through your background, your current challenges when you've had, and then give you the floor to pitch your toy or brand. So let's start with our super straightforward coaching session. I want to know what was going on in your life or your career when you decided to join Toy Creators Academy? What made you feel like it was the right move for you at the time?
Melanie Palmer: Yeah, so I had just left my job to pursue building Emmer's. I knew that I wanted to create children's products that build emotional skills, but I had no experience in the toy industry beyond as a customer, I suppose. But I began to notice that there was this gap in products for kids that focus on building core emotional skills, and I had a few game ideas. I had a bunch of game ideas, but professionally, I was really new to the toy space and I wanted to connect and learn from experts. And everywhere I looked, it was like toy cut. I got TCA that one. So I was like, this seems like an obvious decision.
Azhelle Wade: What made you want to join though? Like, why? Honestly. Like, really, someone with your education and like, why not go a different route? I don't know what route, like, either. Consultant route. Why not go a different route?
Melanie Palmer: Well, it was really important to me to understand, like, every element that I could have, what it took to build a strong product and to go the entrepreneur route, which maybe we'll talk about that later. Yeah. But I felt like I want to get in the weeds and I want like a crash course in how to do this. And I want all the nitty gritty. And so I never really considered going another route of like, fully outsourcing it. You know, I think I joined some info sessions and I heard you speak and read some different things, and I was like, this seems like a great opportunity to dive in.
Azhelle Wade: When you did dive in, what was your first impression? Did you feel like, okay, yeah, this is what I thought, or was it off? And I'm just personally curious now.
Melanie Palmer: I think I was at first a little bit overwhelmed by how much there was. I was like, there's so much. And then I felt excited by that because I was like, there's so much, you know, so. But no, I was really excited. I think things were in really digestible ways. It was easy to download and I could like, save a folder on my computer and label them the way I wanted to, because I didn't need all the information right away. I kind of wanted to go through it all, understand as much as I could. But then I knew I'd be coming back to things when I was at the stage. Like when it comes to product development, finding a manufacturer, like I wasn't there yet when I joined TCA. So yeah, it was helpful to know that I could find those things and to just get an idea of roughly, what does this process look like?
Azhelle Wade: Yeah, okay. I'm really, this is all really great insight to have. Thank you. That was really great to have. Before joining, did you ever doubt whether you could be on the selling side of the toy industry, rather than the consumer? Side of the toy industry? Yes.
Melanie Palmer: Yeah, definitely. I mean, I was and still am a lover of toys and games, but I was completely new to building them. I'd never built a physical product before. Yeah, I did feel like I had a strong understanding that toys and play can help strengthen core emotional skills could help me kind of reach this mission. They can positively impact some of the mental health issues that we see today, which is a whole part of the thing behind Emmer's. But still, I mean, my game ideas were at the earliest stages, and as a game lover, I know it's complex. Like some things might look simple, but there's a lot that goes in behind them. So I definitely had doubts of where my ideas good enough and how would I do this?
Azhelle Wade: What shifted that mindset of like, am I not the right fit?
Melanie Palmer: I think the mindset continued like that didn't leave. It was just like, well, let's try anyways. Why not try? And then another thing that helped was I done a lot of research. I did over 50 interviews with parents and educators and therapists and experts in the emotional learning space to try and just understand more about what was needed in that space for young kids. Because I had spent my career in that space, but mainly with teens and young adults. And so what really shocked me was not one person could mention a game or product that helped their kids build emotional skills, and I know there are some that must exist in these different areas, but the people that I talked to, they weren't popping up to mind. They didn't own them.
So that really shocked me. And so I knew I was kind of on to something with my idea when I was hearing people say, we really need this, or hearing, you know, therapists or OT say, you know, we use Candyland and we adapt that to try and teach some of these skills. And it's like, well, that's awesome and creative, but it's so interesting because Candyland is not made to build those skills. So that was kind of where I started.
Azhelle Wade: No, that's great because I would teach and say define your white space. And when I started my business, I found the white space in the toy industry. And what you experienced tells me that there might be other social emotional products, but no one is. The industry leader for some reason. So there's like a marketing opportunity as long as well as a product development opportunity there. Okay. Side question. Do you have a plan for how you are going to become the industry leader so that you become first to mind when someone asks a therapist a question like that?
Melanie Palmer: Yeah, I'm really working on that plan. I'm working on that plan because there's so many different elements to it, not only in the branding and messaging, but also in like the community building and the word of mouth. And yeah, where it's wanting to build a product. But then it's another thing to have anyone know about it, you know, because otherwise people don't know it exists. So that's something I'm really working on because I do want Emmer's to be the brand people think of when they think about teaching their kids emotional skills in a way that is fun and joyful and accessible.
Azhelle Wade: What's your degrees from Duke, a psych degree from Duke? So I know I'm already going into coaching, but you could definitely go in the thought leader direction to promote Emmer's. I don't know if you want. Maybe you don't want to be the lead of that, but you could be the thought leader behind Emmer's. Almost like you work for Emmer's. I think there's a lot of opportunity there to go and talk on stages or at events and talk about this is the number one tool or this is the best tool for, and essentially like the more you get invited, the more you say it, the more you show it, the more it will eventually actually become the industry leader.
Melanie Palmer: Definitely. No, I think that's, I think that's a really good idea.
Azhelle Wade: Yeah. Are you currently following the path of inventor or entrepreneur or are you still figuring that out?
Melanie Palmer: So I'm going the entrepreneur route. From the beginning I was like entrepreneur route. I just care deeply about the brand building aspect of Emmer's. I have so many product ideas to build emotional skills like so many ideas that, you know, I, you know, it takes so long to build any one thing. So it takes a lot of time.
But, you know, and at my last company that I worked at, I was the second employee and I worked with our CEO. We built the company from two people to 60 employees to bring relationship, health, education across the country. And so I had experience in that, like building phase. I know that I love the like scrappiness and energy that comes with the building. Yeah, as like scary and terrifying as it also is. I love it.
Azhelle Wade: Same. Give us your elevator pitch for your toy, your brand. How would you describe it if you only had 30 seconds in an elevator with someone?
Melanie Palmer: 30 seconds. Kids are born with all of the feelings, but none of the skills to handle them. And this is something that a psychologist named Doctor Becky says all the time. And it always just sticks with me because as a mom, an aunt to 11 nieces and nephews, I know firsthand how hard it can be, but how important it is to teach emotional skills. So skills like naming emotions, managing emotions, building resilience in ways that actually stick. And so that's what Emmer's here to do. We're here to create children's products starting with the board game and children's books that teach emotional skills in really playful and fun first ways because emotional skills they aren't and nice to have. They're really the foundation of everything, of friendships, relationships, and even academic success.
Azhelle Wade: What's been the hardest part so far of launching this brand?
Melanie Palmer: How long everything takes? I mean, I'm one of those people that likes to, like, move quickly and get things done and go, go, go. And this is my first experience with creating physical products. I've, you know, created workshops and curriculum and that, you know, you can move pretty quickly with that, but with physical products, it takes a lot of time. I think another thing that has been a big challenge is I'm the only employee at Emmer's. I work with some amazing contractors who support me in different ways, but I spend the majority of my time on like back end operations with just the like physical product development and haven't had the time for the brand building, the marketing, the distribution planning that is so important. So that's definitely been a big challenge as well.
Azhelle Wade: Interesting. Which part actually took the longest, was it like the product development portion, the sampling portion, the, I don't know what?
Melanie Palmer: I think the like playtesting and tinkering. I can be a perfectionist. And it developing a product reminds me of like writing a paper like you're never really done. You can edit it for forever. Yeah. And so it was really hard for me to like end play testing and be like, it's time to build this and put it out in the world, because every single play test sounds like, oh, well, what if we tinker it this way or that way? And I want to test it with these types of kids and these types of families. And so that part took the longest from like the conception of the game.
And actually I did a full development of a different game and then decided I wanted to pivot to another idea and so then started that. So that's the part that definitely took the longest, because there's this element of like, well, when are you done? When is it good enough?
Azhelle Wade: If you could snap your fingers and instantly just fix one thing in your business right now, what would it be?
Melanie Palmer: I don't know if this is something to fix, but I just have so many product ideas that I want. Snap my fingers and have them exist, you know. Like the process, like, I started this process exactly two years ago, and a lot of that was like research and head down and whatever. But so the product development, though still was maybe like a year and a half, 18 months. And so I don't want to put anything out in the world that I don't think is actually really, really great. I don't want to put things out just to put out a product. And again, as a perfectionist, like there's always more to do. So I could snap my fingers and just have like the products in my head currently being like tested with kids and in the world. That would definitely be it.
Azhelle Wade: Well, I'll give it a devil's advocate for why that wouldn't be a good thing for your business. The toy industry is so about newness. Like, say you start getting this into retail stores. If that's a goal of yours, every year the retailers are going to want to see like what's new, what's next? And if you want to start applying for toy awards, so many of them are like, it has to have come out this year. So say you did come out with all ten products, now you for the next five years. What would you do for like toy awards? So it's actually great. And you know, it's great that you have the ideas and just make a plan for trying to roll out one new thing a year at minimum. So that you always have a thing to show to buyers and to submit for awards.
Melanie Palmer: Yeah, that's a really good advice. I think the other piece on top of that too, that I think a lot about is like, I don't know what I don't know. And if I launch all these products, like I want to launch this product and then like learn what people like and what people don't like. I know there are going to be elements that people don't like or want tinkered with, and that can help inform future products. So that's another element where I'm like, be patient, be patient. But, you know, and. I struggle with that of that.
Azhelle Wade: What's the price point of your first product?
Melanie Palmer: So the game is $39.99, okay. And then the three books set, so it's three children's books, hardcover. That is also $39.99. And then there is a bundling option where you can buy the two together at like a $20 discount. But that is the price point.
Azhelle Wade: Did you test the price point like did you do market research on the price point?
Melanie Palmer: Yeah, I did market research on the price point to just kind of find what fit best. It is a premium product, but I still want it to be accessible. I don't want it to be priced at a point where people aren't able to access it. So that was kind of something I was trying to balance.
Azhelle Wade: Perfect. What do you think your next move should be? I guess with Emmer's. But now I'm thinking it's to launch. But what do you think your next move should be?
Melanie Palmer: I think I need to lift my head up from, like, the back end operation staff and really focus on how to get people to know about this product. Like you had mentioned, Toy Awards haven't even been thinking about that, has not been on my radar. Like that. As soon as you said that, I was like, how am I not thinking about that? There are just different things within them. I don't know if you would call it like PR, marketing or distribution side. Yeah, but I have not had the time to put my energy into and working with an agency to do that is very, very expensive and I'm not there. So it's the next area that I need to focus is, you know, okay, the products are created. Yeah. They're, you know, they're here ready to ship. And so I now need to really be focusing on what are the most strategic and creative ways to let the world know that this exists.
Azhelle Wade: Well, definitely go back to Module Seven and Module Seven, Lesson Seven actually covers the Toy Awards. And there's a list of the Toy Awards that you should, you could and should apply for. And there's like a little description of what they're all about there. I'll say one right now, one that's very, so some of the toy Awards can be seen as like pay to play, but one that's like very well known for not being pay to play is the Oppenheim Award. So look into that one first. There are a lot. There are many others, but a lot of them cost a lot to submit to. Or Oppenheim I think is rather affordable. But yeah, the Module Seven is like, it's a lot of content marketing. It's kind of how I launched The Toy Coach to get, I'm teaching that process to teachers. Yeah, we do need to update it, but I am working on it. There's so much.
Melanie Palmer: Sure. I have it. Yeah, but I'm sure I already have it saved on.
Azhelle Wade: Oh, you and your.
Melanie Palmer: Folder. And I'll go back to it because. Cause, I mean, that's where I need to focus next. And it just keeps falling back on the back burner because it's like, ensure that I have the right sales tax set up or do that. You know, there are things that just happen, you know, have to come ahead of it. I fortunately—
Azhelle Wade: I also feel like before I even get to the coaching part yet, but. I feel like before. You even start with your toy industry awards, I found a lot of luck in the toy industry when I had visibility outside of it first. So in building my business. Yeah, because it's like the toy and you can be very clicky. They can be very clicky. That's why I exist. So it like. Helps if you have authority elsewhere to the point where like they'd be a fool to ignore you, essentially, comment. So if since you are already connected, you did like those 50 interviews, can those turn into, like, credibility statements? Can they turn into like testimonials? Could they turn into, I don't know, do those people have podcasts? Do they have events you could speak at? Do they have, you know, workshops you can put on? Like, what other proof can you assemble so that you can then come to this award and be like, we are renowned in this community already, so how could you not choose us, kind of thing?
Melanie Palmer: You know, that's really smart. That's really smart.
Azhelle Wade: Awesome. So now we'll go on to the coaching session. What challenge do you want to work through today?
Melanie Palmer: I mean, what we've been talking about is really it. Like, oh, perfect. Launching direct to consumer, wanting to ensure that my product has a place in home and schools and therapy offices and creating awareness for my brand, like how to approach that process. I have a bit of a plan. You know, I have email marketing, social media marketing. Want to work with content creators and different influencers. But again, it, I haven't been to any like toy fairs or any of the like physical events, which I should probably start dipping my toes into. At the very least, I haven't had a big focus on PR really. So any advice like what you've said so far is already so helpful and I've written it down on do's or even don'ts, like things where you're like, people always think this is going to be helpful. It's not. Don't do this around launching a direct to consumer brand and helping people understand what you're doing.
Azhelle Wade: Well, when you talk about toy trade shows, most toy trade shows are usually focus on launching a wholesale focused brand. Yeah, so I don't know if that would really benefit you. The only one that comes to mind, I mean, the ones that I have on my list, like there are others like maker fairs I don't really focus on, but the one on my list that I'm thinking of for next year would be ChiTAG. That's like a consumer facing fair. However, for that fair, the products that tend to do well at that fair are very physical because there are kids that come running to that fair. So like, I don't know if like it'll be the most like calm. Unless. I mean, unless you approach it differently where like maybe you have a big inflatable room that you build in your booth and that's what kids come into. And it's like a peaceful moment. I, you know, maybe that could work, but if it's out in the open like a table like everyone else, I think it would get lost because it's a very like the products that do well or like this is another TCA product. It's like a slap bracelet type thing. There's like whole building blocks thing that was popular there. Like they build like giant castles, like it's, you know, very physical. It's very physical.
Yeah. My thought though is so when you're doing direct to consumer, I look at organic to pay social media. So I like, I built The Toy Coach organic first till we were about like a thousand followers and engaged and then shifted to paid because it allowed me to identify who my audience was and get Facebook to retarget them. But then if you don't build the actual followers, you could also just build the email list because you can use that to retarget. So I don't, are you planning on building an email list because I think you'll need like two sets. You'll almost need like the therapy like the therapist. And then you'll need the parent set.
Melanie Palmer: Yeah, that's a really good point about the two sets. Right now I have one email list that like everyone is funneling into. Yeah. And so I need to, that's really smart. I hadn't thought about that about really like segmenting them between the educator side and the parent side. I need to update the feedback form to ask some of those questions. Yeah. So yes, I am focused on building an email list. I wouldn't say I'm taking like active steps to build it out in the ways that I should be.
Azhelle Wade: Oh my gosh, I will tell you what you should do now. All right. Because like, I just started a new way of building my email list. It's all paid ads and it was really affordable. I actually use chat to a bit to help me build out like my first ad, because I just wanted something where I didn't think think over it too much and I hate it, but it actually converted really well. Like $2 leads, which for my what I do is very cheap. So basically I created a landing page and it's the play pattern landing page. If you go to like thetoycoach.com/theplaypattern , it's the landing page for our newsletter. And it just says like what the newsletter is about. So it's like an industry newsletter for people that want to stay ahead of the toy industry and toy trends. There's some like proof, like social proof of like reviews of people that like my coaching or like my newsletter. There's like some text about before you join this newsletter and after you join this newsletter and then kind of subscribed and all it is, is like, put your email address and subscribe. But that landing page is all about the email address.
There's no header, there's no footer. Then I did Facebook ads directly to that landing page and that has been converting really well. And then I did a retargeting ad to hit people that go to that page but don't sign up. But I didn't spend a lot. Like the retargeting ads, like $2 a day because they're not that great. Yeah. But the main ad is like to a cold interest audience and also to a lookalike audience, to my Facebook and Instagram followers and also a lookalike audience to my emails. So I have like three different ad segments running to get people to join this email list, like ongoing. That has been a really great consistent, and then what you can do at the back end. So if like once you get that set up and it's like you're like, okay, I'm converting, you're going to be like, oh, I need to make some money back because this is really expensive. So when someone hits the confirmation page, that's where you can like sell them something either digital or you can try to get them. I don't know if you have like a preorder for your product. So you could, oh, you do have a preorder?
Melanie Palmer: Yeah. Well, our preorders are opening on next week.
Azhelle Wade: Oh. So you tweak?
Melanie Palmer: Depending on when this comes out.
Azhelle Wade: Perfect. So on the confirmation page you could do one of two things. I mean. For. You all is not too high of price point. You could do. Oh, this would be probably you could, you could do a preorder page with like a super limited time discount. Like, what have you said preorder page? Since you signed up to our email list, you have for a day, you're going to get 10% off of our product price. You can preorder it for whatever this amount is, so you can get back some of your ad money is really the goal. If you don't for your product, you can do a paper version of your product. So I've had people create like, like sample like card samples that people like print at home and you could say test out the product or experience the product for, you know, $7.77, something really low. Yeah. So they're spending money with your brand so they can learn to trust your brand, but they're not investing more than maybe they're ready to because they just met you. And they're getting to experience the product but not invest or wait for the physical product to come.
Melanie Palmer: Yeah, okay. That's really smart. Yeah, I hadn't thought about that in the like incentive offerings when it comes to email list. So that's really, that's a great idea.
Azhelle Wade: So the one thing I other thing I want to explore is like, okay, so we're building, what question do you want to be the face behind Emmer's? Like, would you want to be The Toy Coach of Emmer's or? No.
Melanie Palmer: That's not where my interests lie. I would say, like, I want to be the face as much as it helps Emmer's and helps Emmer's get off the ground. But I'm not looking to become a face. It's not like you don't. So that's.
Azhelle Wade: Emmer's like essentially.
Melanie Palmer: Totally. I mean, I'm, I don't even, I'm not a person who even like posts often on my own personal social media. I'm doing social media for Emmer's, by the way, and like putting videos out. That is so uncomfortable for me and not natural for me. Like it is not something I enjoy, but it's something that I've learned is really important. Like people need to see that there's like a human behind the brand, a mom behind the brand who cares so genuinely and deeply about this. But yeah, if I could choose to, like, just stay behind the scenes, I would.
Azhelle Wade: Oh my God, I'm the same. Like before The Toy Coach, I was not a social media person at all. Like I would post like.
Melanie Palmer: That's so funny to me. You're so good at it. You're such a natural.
Azhelle Wade: Don't like it. Like, I don't like that there's so much of me out there. But like you, I was like, this is what you have to do these days. Like, this is it. And then it just. But okay, what I'm thinking is Emmer's needs to have a very clear personality. So before I was the face of The Toy Coach, it actually was faceless because I was still working in the industry and I just didn't want like people to like judge The Toy Coach based on who was behind it. But it still did have a, like a vibe. It had a voice. It was my voice. It had like an a way of being. And I would share what the community said in my podcast a lot. So I would like, say, reviews or I would say, you guys wanted this. So there was still like a community building even when I wasn't the face.
So I just, I'm thinking you need to create a face or a personality for, maybe it's a character, like an, a rendered character, because I could see you definitely becoming the brand for social emotional products. But if I were going to invite Emmer's to talk at my event, I would want to feel like I know what personality I'm getting. So I'm just like, there has to be some clear something.
Melanie Palmer: Okay, this is a really interesting conversation. So we have, and I don't think this is exactly what you're talking about. Okay. But we have four. Characters that are like that are the characters that are in the game in all the books, and they are like the heart of the brand. I don't know that they, they're kids. They're these little monster kids. I don't know that they would be what you're describing as like the voice.
Azhelle Wade: Maybe like, let's imagine them, like, compare them to the owl from Duolingo. Right? So like, I mean.
Melanie Palmer: That's a really good point. Yeah, it's a really good point. And I mean, that is the hope is that that's kind of what I had in my mind is like, they are the face. They are what people look about, look at and care about. Here they are, by the way.
Azhelle Wade: Yes. Yeah.
Melanie Palmer: Like they kind of take over being the face of Emmer's. Yeah. So maybe that does make sense. I was thrown off a little bit when you were talking, like. Like their voice.
Azhelle Wade: Very. Yeah. Well, Duolingo voice. Is very, like, threatening. But like, in a, I'm threatening you. Because I care about you. Way, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So he, it's really easy to translate this to social media, but I am wondering, so now what I would want to do is like research like has Duolingo, the employees of Duolingo, ever gone out and spoken somewhere, like at an event? And I would want to know, like, how do they talk about Duolingo when they're representing the company? You know, like, let's get creative here. I think it's almost like what we're talking about, what we're imagining may not even exist yet. Like nobody might be doing this the way that we're kind of getting to. But maybe it's like, are they puppets? I don't know, are? They like, what is it like? You know.
Melanie Palmer: Like I have product ideas and then I have a whole idea of a world of these characters, everything from like plush toys to a TV show. Like, I feel like I know them so personally. They have, like, such personalities. To me, they're like true characters, but like no one in the world knows about because they aren't like out there yet. But I definitely want to find ways to leverage them because they're so cute and adorable, and I love them. And I are meant to be really relatable for for kids.
Azhelle Wade: Wait, I think I have it, it's here. Okay. It has arrived to my brain. So the angels have brought it. It is here. Okay. So when I started my podcast. It was all audio. So like Emmer's could have a podcast and it could be all audio and they could be. I mean, with AI you could probably create character voices and they, they could be tell it teaching or telling. If you make this podcast something that educators or therapists would use to either educate themselves or to educate their client, that's how you become a resource for them in the industry and then thus become like an authority figure. So like when I launched, I was like the help for certain people. So it became an authority point in the industry. So what you want to build is that authority point.
Then I'm imagining now I'm like expanding. So if you did like down the line two years, like they want Emmer's to come to a show like you say, oh yeah, sure we'll talk. But like, you don't actually like, like you go, but like, you don't talk. Like maybe it's a video. So like, whenever Emmer's present, it's like the characters jump on screen and they're like taking over and they're presenting and it's their thing. Right? Like down the down the line. But that's like where, right? Right where it couldn't involve.
Melanie Palmer: No, I love that. I love that idea. I mean, I want them to be the face of Emmer's, and I want them to be what people think of when they think of Emmer's. Yeah. For adorable monster characters. Yeah. So, yeah, it's. I guess it's just about like, building towards that.
Azhelle Wade: Yeah, I think a podcast, I mean, I should say that I was going to say, I think a good podcast could be super easy, but honestly, when I started mine. That was a mistake. It was not easy. It was so, yeah, it does.
Melanie Palmer: It doesn't seem easy. It seems very fun, but it does not seem easy.
Azhelle Wade: It's a lot. It's a lot of things. Yeah. But I do think with AI it could be. I mean, I would go back to the people that you interviewed and see if that would be something that they would add to their, that they would want to listen to regularly. Like, or if you ask them, like if there was some sort of a resource, if there was some sort of a podcast for you or for your clients, what do you think it would be like? What would it have? And this, is part of what I say in Module Seven is content marketing. This this would be your content marketing. So this would be what you do. You just make this podcast and post the transcripts and like that becomes like how people define Emmer's as the lead.
Melanie Palmer: That's very smart. Yeah, that's really smart. I mean, I think that's a great idea.
Azhelle Wade: Well, if the woman who graduated from Duke and Harvard says, I'm. Sorry, man.
Melanie Palmer: You're so smart. And that was it, could.
Azhelle Wade: I have made it? Why? Thank you. Please leave us a review and put that in it. Like your review is. I graduated from Duke and Harvard, and I say that it's not. Oh, I love, sorry. Am I embarrassing you? I apologize, yes. I apologize, I'm so impressed. Like I saw it the first time and the second time, like so nice. It's almost. It's intimidating actually. It's quite intimidating. Oh my gosh. Like, she went through my career recently. I need to, I need to make it better.
Melanie Palmer: Dan, your course was amazing. It was awesome. So comprehensive. Like so comprehensive.
Azhelle Wade: Truly I loved it. Thank you, I appreciate it. Well, I hope that that coaching session was helpful. I want to go on to celebrating. Your win and. Your progress now. So yeah, let's celebrate some wins. What was a moment that you recently had that made you stop and say, oh my God, wow, I really did that?
Melanie Palmer: Holding the products in my hand. Yeah, holding the products in my hand. So surreal because I held paper versions of it. You know, that's what we did playtesting with both with the books and the game. Like, you know, cardboard, good paper. But still. But being able to, like, hold something and. Be like, she was. In my.
Azhelle Wade: Okay. Yeah. We're on, we're going to put this on YouTube. So if you're listening, go to YouTube to see Emmer's. So beautiful.
Melanie Palmer: Okay. So here is the box with the four monster characters. And when you open it up you've got the directions, which include a lot of also tips and things about emotions, defining emotions in a way that's digestible for kids, things like that. And then we have a game board here.
Azhelle Wade: So very. Playful.
Melanie Palmer: You know, a nice size, not too big so that, you know, any time you take out a game with kids and it's way too big, you're just like, where do I put these things? So then we have a stack of Emmer's. Cards for playing.
Azhelle Wade: Let me see. Let me see the artwork. Let me see the artwork.
Melanie Palmer: Oh my gosh, the artwork is awesome. It is really amazing. So essentially there are a couple types of cards. There's one type of card that is a scenario based card where you're asked a question, you're told something about the characters, and you need to talk about how they feel. And then there's another type of card. Let's find one here. This one's upside down. That is more of like a prompt card getting kids to engage and answer questions or do something funny. So those are the two types of cards in the stack. There are 65 cards which you know, you would never get through in one play. So it's, you know, the replayability is awesome. But it's in working through those cards that you then move your way across the board, working to get to the end. And then one of my favorite parts is there are these 18 emotion tokens that are the characters making these little cute different expressions. Looks so dimensional.
Azhelle Wade: It looks really dimensional. Wow. Yes.
Melanie Palmer: Yeah, it's super dimensional and I love the design of the characters because it almost feels like they're made of paper and that they're. I really should have done my nails for this interview. They.
Azhelle Wade: I'm just noticing I'm like, oh boy.
Melanie Palmer: But it feels like they're, you know, they're made of paper. They're like, made by kids out of construction paper. So that is, that is the game. It's super fun. It's great for kids, but also for adults. I think that's something that's been so exciting is seeing how, like, adults are really enjoying playing it with kids and learning things about their kids that they didn't know. I was going to ask. And adults.
Azhelle Wade: Yeah. So like what? I'm a new mom. So like, what scenario would I play? In saying thanks or we're sending help. Whatever statement is accurate, so with my kid. When he grows up and he can read, what, when would I want to play out this game? Like when he comes home from school and he's like, I had a hard day. Or like when, when?
Melanie Palmer: When he comes home from school before bed in the morning, before school, it can be a little hectic, so depending on that. But I will say one other thing that I love about the game. It's also great for, you know, classrooms and therapy sessions is let's say you don't have time or don't want to, you know, get out the whole board game. These cards are so awesome just to use on their own. You can use these at dinner. You can use these before bed. If you're a teacher and you're doing a circle time with 25 students, you can use them during that. Where you have kids, pick a card and answer the prompt. They're really fun and playful.
But another thing that we saw play testers do, which was unexpected and really fun, was just kind of keep these around, keep these in the kitchen and talk about, you know, oh, are you feeling this emotion? When is a time where you felt that emotion and just getting kids talking about emotions? Because again, this game doesn't feel educational and it's not meant to feel educational. It's meant to feel fun. And it kind of sneaks in the education for kids. So even just kind of having it around because let me be clear that Emmer's products, you don't play the product and then suddenly you have all these emotional skills and you're like set. You know, this is something that it's a practice that builds over time. And Emmer's contributes to that by creating these products that make it really easy to build these skills. So even just having it around and playing with the different elements of it. Also in the game directions, there are alternative ways to play where you can use just the cards, you can use just the emotion tokens, but it gives these really creative ideas of ways to play as well.
Azhelle Wade: Yeah, okay. I love this. I want to get a better sense of the game. So when we start the game, do we randomly pull a card from the top of the deck and then we're going, around the board like two people be on the same color space at once? How do we win? I want to get a whole vibe.
Melanie Palmer: Yeah, yeah. Okay. Let me go into that. So let's say you can play with 2 to 4 players or if people are on teams, you know you can play with as many as you want. But on your turn what you do is you pick a card, you pick whatever's on top of the deck. So for example, this card says Emmer's tries eating broccoli for the first time and realizing it actually tastes really good. Pick 1 to 3 emotions that you think Emmer's might be feeling and then move forward. The number of emotions that you choose. So you then you have these emotion tokens laid out. You then 1 to 3 tokens, you pick them up, you hold them. They're like really satisfying to hold by the way. They're like soft. Yeah. And then you get to move forward those three spaces. So you're making your way around the board. Of course there are these fun like skip ahead and move forward to space and skip your next turn, those types of things. But you go around each picking a card.
I think another great thing about this game that I was really intentional about is you can play it in 15 minutes.
Azhelle Wade: I was going to ask you now. Yes.
Melanie Palmer: I mean, growing up, I was obsessed with Monopoly. So, like, love and we'll always love Monopoly. But I feel like anytime I wanted to play, my parents were like.
Azhelle Wade: Like, Good God, no. Do we have to?
Melanie Palmer: Yeah, exactly. Like, must we? Yeah. So that's something I wanted to be intentional about. What? This game is, like 15 minutes, 15 minutes. Because the other thing is, some families are game families and they'll spend hours playing games. But there are families that are not game families. And I learned that through playtesting, too. They were like, when our kid brings a board game over to us, we're not like, yay! We're like, we got to read directions. Oh, and, you know. They kind of feel like this is a little bit of a hassle. Yeah. And so I wanted to make the game as, like, simple draw card move, draw card move. Yeah. And, like, fast as possible, because you can play as many times as you want. You can also pick up the pace or slow it down.
There were some families who would spend, you know, 30 minutes to an hour playing just because they would have such long conversations about each card or about each thing, because there are some of these which you can choose to do or you don't have to do, like just depends on how you're feeling, the mood you're in. But for instance, you know, if you draw a card like this, share time when you felt brave, then strike your strongest superhero pose and say, I'm brave, I'm strong. You know, it's really cute. But someone might say something, you know, like going to that birthday party. I felt really brave. And it's like you did? Like what? Why did I? I thought you were excited for the like. What about that birthday party made you feel brave? That kind of infers that you were maybe a little nervous for it. And it leads to this conversation that otherwise would not have come up, which is something I really love about it.
Azhelle Wade: Can you give an actual story? Or maybe that was one I'd love to hear an actual story about from your playtest where a parent said, we learn this, or we gained this from your game? How is your game helped people that playtest it?
Melanie Palmer: It yeah, it was one prompt where a little boy, he was playing with his dad, and when they were asking like, what was the best part of your week? And he said, when you picked me up from school, that was the best part of my week. It made me so happy. And the dad was like, this was like a family friend. So I was actually there. And so he was able to say to me, it wasn't just a stranger, but he was like, when I picked him up from school, he was like, he seemed distracted and talking about all these other things and like, I don't usually pick him up. I didn't think it really mattered to him. Like, now I'm going to make an effort to pick him up from school, like up his whole week. He thinks that is the best time.
Azhelle Wade: Like, oh my gosh. You know, sometimes you gosh. Totally like sometimes you can't.
Melanie Palmer: Tell, you know, the kid would like from the dad's perspective, the kid just got in the car, wanted to snack, wanted to listen to some music, like it's not like the dad arrived and the kid was like, I'm so grateful you're here. This is the best part of my week, you know. That doesn't just come out. So things like that coming out in this game are so fun because it's like, oh my gosh. Not only did that bring you guys closer, but there's actually like a behavior you're going to change, okay. Like making more time to pick them up for school. Yeah. Because you now know it means something. And that conversation otherwise wouldn't have come up. So it was hearing situations like that. But I was like this is so fun.
Azhelle Wade: It's almost a game. That creates mindfulness, right? Like it makes you be aware of your life and yeah, appreciative of it. That's really nice.
Melanie Palmer: Yeah, definitely.
Azhelle Wade: Oh, that's so lovely. I'm so glad that this is a Toy Creator's Academy game. This is great. Yeah. No, this is fantastic. What's something that you've. Done since joining the program that you never thought you would do? Before joining?
Melanie Palmer: Something I've done is, I think, more like networking in the toy space. Like trying to join different, like, toy groups and things like that. It's not that, you know, that's something I would never do, but it just what I just didn't know that that like, necessarily existed in this space and that there are so many amazingly creative people doing so many different things in so many different ways and so that was something that was really exciting to me.
Azhelle Wade: Oh that's great. Have you ever had any moments that changed how you think about your product or your audience?
Melanie Palmer: Yeah, I think one of my biggest moments came when I realized that even though Emmer's was born out of this like big long term goal of helping prevent mental health struggles that I saw in teens and young adults that I was working with in my previous job, that's not necessarily how parents think day to day. Like as a parent of a four year old is not necessarily thinking about their child's teenage years and preventing mental health issues. Some parents are, but the majority, they're just thinking about their day. And so I used to talk about Emmer's as prevention and really like hone in on that. No way to build emotional skills early and get ahead of future mental health challenges. And let me be clear, that's still like certainly true. All of that is true. But what I came to understand is that parents need to feel the impact today. They want to see their child feel more connected, to hear their kids say, you know, I'm frustrated instead of falling apart. And those other kind of day to day things. And that really just shifted how I talk about what we do. Because yes, my goal is to work to protect long term mental health 100%, but it's also to make some elements of like parenting and teaching. These skills just feel lighter and calmer and more connected right now. So I think the moment was kind of that realization that the prevention piece matters. Yeah, but the real magic is in like the everyday moments of connection happening in families right now.
Azhelle Wade: That is such a good realization. That's like what you want to give your audience versus what they want to get from you.
Melanie Palmer: Exactly. Yeah. I'm like, I want to give you this. And they're like, but we want that, you know? So yes.
Azhelle Wade: I think I experienced that in my business too. I want to give like I want to give you the tools. So that you can get taken advantage of. And then people are like, but I just want your factory context. Please leave me alone. Like I'm like, okay, so what if I give you the factory context? But I also, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's such a challenge because you know. What's going to help them long term and like, it would feel disingenuous to provide something that would only help for this one second. So like, yeah, I could help you for ten minutes, but I know you're going to be struggling later. So. Yeah. That's so good. Yeah. Okay.
We did kind of highlight our part three is normally your product's moment to shine. But we did highlight it. We did get our time with it. But now I want to know if someone wants to buy Emmer's, where can they go and when can they get it?
Melanie Palmer: Okay. So they can go to emmersco.com. So that's E M M E R S C https://www.google.com/search?q=O.com. And there they can shop the three buying options which is the board game, the set of three books or the whole bundle together. So there are those three buying options. And then everything starts. You can preorder now but everything starts shipping the first week of November, so it'll arrive long before the holidays, which is important.
Azhelle Wade: Wait, I do want to ask, is there a specific story or time or something that happened in your life that inspired this?
Melanie Palmer: So yes, like multiple things. My brain just went in like two different directions between like childhood and my previous work. Yeah, I'll start with my previous work, which is and I know I alluded to it, but before starting Emmer's, I spent nearly a decade at a company working on relationship health, education and relationship abuse prevention. So I worked with teens and educators and parents across the country, and I noticed this really clean, clear pattern of teens who had strong emotional foundations, strong emotional skills were the ones who were just best set up to thrive. And that realization, combined with my background in psychology and my experience as a mom, it made me just want to reach kids earlier with this education. Like before the teen years before struggles, you know, are so much bigger.
Yeah. And so that was when I kind of began studying, like what psychologists call protective factors against the mental health issues. So like self-awareness, strong relationships, resilience, all of that. And I just studied kind of how can those skills be built into early childhood. And I realized that the most powerful way to teach them was, was not through lectures or lessons, but through play. And then I really leaned on my own, like childhood experiences. For instance, Emmer's, this character, this is her brother Zae, and they're like loosely based on me and one of my brothers. I'm one of four kids. And so and he and I are, you know, 16 months apart and very close. And so this was kind of based on us as kids and the big emotions we had. And then two of their friends. And then the three storybooks are each based on an actual memory and experience for my life. So there are three books. Super fun rhyming because I just like love stories.
Azhelle Wade: Yeah.
Melanie Palmer: I don't know about you, but like with our child, we're pretty much only reading rhyming books. Coming back to the right. Yeah, just like then you kind of memorize them and it just becomes fun. So that.
Azhelle Wade: Sounds lovely, but we just have books like whatever they give us, like our. Family is giving us so many whatever.
Melanie Palmer: Here, we'll just pick up. Yeah. So there are three books all focused on resilience. The first book is about a character, Emmer's. She's a very short loser, just like hates losing games, throws a fit, and how she moves through that, which was me as a kid. Like, you didn't want to play games with me because if I lost, I'm like, had a fit. It was, my.
Azhelle Wade: Gosh, not.
Melanie Palmer: Fun. My siblings were like, you're horrible, please stop. Oh no. And then the second book is about a birthday party based on my own experience from a fifth grade birthday party. I mean five year old birthday party where just everything goes wrong. You have these high expectations when it rains and everything gets messed up. And then the third book is about the struggles of learning how to read. It's really folk. I mean, that's what it hones in on, but it's really about how as kids and as humans, they're things we're really good at and they're things that are harder for us. And I'm dyslexic, and learning to read as a kid was really hard for me. And, you know, so the stories about how when everyone else around you was good at something and you're not, and how to kind of move through that and feel the different emotions of that.
Azhelle Wade: Wow, that's that sounds really impactful. What age grade are the books and the product?
Melanie Palmer: So the game is for ages four plus. Okay. The books I would say are really made for ages 3 to 6, but I don't know about you, but even having younger children, like we're reading books to them, all different types of books to them.
Azhelle Wade: So we're reading when he couldn't like, see. He was like a newborn. Yeah, exactly. Know exactly, exactly. How you doing the story. Yeah. You're like.
Melanie Palmer: Here's a, you know, long. So like, here we go.
Azhelle Wade: Doesn't even know I exist yet. Just. Yeah. No. Exactly, exactly. And he's like, what's going on? Yeah.
Melanie Palmer: So yeah, I would say the books, you know, we say 3 to 6, but really it's.
Azhelle Wade: Yeah. Whenever you want to start reading them to them. Okay. That's great. And so emmersco.com to get Emmer's. We're launching soon, shipping November 1st. One of the last questions I want to ask you. If someone's out there wondering if they should join Toy Creators Academy to work on their idea, what would you have to say to them?
Melanie Palmer: I would say definitely. Like, I don't know, a better place to start.
Azhelle Wade: Yeah, if you.
Melanie Palmer: Really want to, there is none. There is none. Don't even think about it. No, truly though, actually, like, I don't know a better place to start because I had no idea all the elements that went into it. And it's very comprehensive. Yeah. Like. No, in a good way. In a good way. And I know I said it.
Azhelle Wade: First thing about making it shorter, I really am. I'm trying to work a way to simplify, but.
Melanie Palmer: The great thing is that, like, you can move through at the pace that you want. So if you're kind of just trying to get to the end to get like a broader scope, like you can do that and you have good like overview documents as well of, right, here's the whole path thing.
Azhelle Wade: Yes, yes.
Melanie Palmer: So I would say like if you want to jump into this industry or if you're in the industry and want to like really get into the nitty gritty of like, how do you do this? Not to mention the like contacts and connections, like, you're so open with the information you share, like you're not holding back anything.
Azhelle Wade: Resources like not. Which is like amazing. Like literally like your resource is in there.
Melanie Palmer: Every resource is there, which is like hugely valuable. So I would say like, don't think twice, do it.
Azhelle Wade: Seriously. I think people don't understand that. I think so many people want it done for them. And you happen to be one of those persons where people where you like to build, but so many people want it done for them. And unfortunately, the cost of having someone do it for you is in the. Tens and tens of. Thousands. Yeah, it's unrealistic. And if you don't pay that and someone saying they're going to build it for you, you're not going to get what you want if you're not paying what it's really worth. So you're better off an unfortunately building slow if you just want to build it yourself, you want to build slow and doing it yourself. So that's why I created what I created. Now, my favorite question to ask. What toy or game blew your mind as a kid?
Melanie Palmer: I love games, so like Monopoly? Yeah. Guess Who? Yeah, but Monopoly was really the one where I was just, like, obsessed with.
Azhelle Wade: You see the new. One every time. Have you seen the new? Like, an. Electronic? One? Yeah. Okay. So I thought. I was like, does everything have to be electronic? That's all. Like, okay, my husband works for Hasbro, full disclosure. So I might be like, okay. But, but it is so cool. So like, you get like a debit card and it has like a throne for your iPad to sit on. And the iPad keeps. Track of how much money everyone has. So on every turn you're like, scan. Your debit card. It's actually really fun. For some reason, that's really smart.
Melanie Palmer: And then like, the worst part of Monopoly was when you had to clean everything up and you had to like, yeah, get all the dollars and the rights of it. It's really hard. That sounds much easier.
Azhelle Wade: I think you even scan like the things you want to own, like you scan everything. It's so. Cool. I and then. You even scan your face. And then like when it's your turn, like it like illuminates like your face. It's really fun. I actually we should get it. We don't have it. All right. I played it into that. Yeah, I played it. I tell you that. It is very cool. I love it, I love it.
Melanie Palmer: That's so. Fun. Yeah. That's so fun now. So yeah, I love Monopoly. I need to get that. And then like all the classic like pretend and Play-Doh and.
Azhelle Wade: Yeah, like.
Melanie Palmer: Open ended building stuff I also love.
Azhelle Wade: Oh that makes sense. Melanie, it was a pleasure. To have you on the show. I hope that people check out Emmer's. And fun to.
Melanie Palmer: Be here.
Azhelle Wade: Yeah. And your Emmer's HQ on Instagram also. Yeah, I want to shout that out. Now toy person, if you. Love this podcast and you haven't already left us a review, what are you waiting for? Your reviews keep me an amazing guest. Coming back week after week. Every time a new review comes in, I get notified. It puts a huge smile on my face. As always, thank you so much for spending this time with us today. I know your time is valuable and that there are other podcasts out there, so it truly means the world to me that you tuned in to this one. Until next week. I'll see you later, toy people.
Voiceover: Thanks for listening to the Making It in the Toy Industry podcast with Azhelle Wade. Head over to thetoycoach.com for more information, tips and advice.
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